# OMG ~1/10th of Polish leadership wiped out in plane crash **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674 "2010-04-10T22:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/21 "2010-04-12T00:56:03Z")
My condolences to Poland and I extend my prayers to the Polish nation and the families of the deceased. As for conspiracy theorists this is possibly the most suspiscious incident since the USS _Maine_ explosion. Even if there is no technical evidence for a Russian plot, for the conspiracy theorists there’s plenty of circumstantial evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/22 "2010-04-12T01:45:02Z")
Horrible. I do not know what to say. Words fail. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/23 "2010-04-12T11:43:02Z")
Re. conspiracy theories, a Polish-American friend tells me that Polish news sites and forums are abuzz with suspicion that this happened so soon after the Russian-American nuclear treaty, and that there is anger that the Russians will be the ones looking at the plane’s “black box”. As straightforward as this terrible accident appears, my guess is it’s going to feed a _lot_ of theories… ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/24 "2010-04-12T14:27:02Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > …the Polish President has a history of forcing pilots to land planes against their judgement in the past… > [@Magiver](#): > > There is also a suggestion that President Lech Kaczynski may have pressured the pilot to land. Seriously? Not to speak ill of the dead, but someone who would try to force a pilot to land in conditions he feels are unsafe shouldn’t be running a municipal dump, much less a country. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/25 "2010-04-12T14:49:57Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > It was a reference to the movie [King Ralph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ralph) :D. Was it? I thought it was a reference to West Wing, but you’re probably right. Goodman has a pattern of assuming the Head of State in a crisis, doesn’t he? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/26 "2010-04-12T14:54:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Unless Putin can create fog on demand, and then command the pilots to miss the runway a couple of times to make it look good then crash and kill themselves, this was an accident. But if he did have those machines, he could tell the Russian aviation administration to F.O.D. (Fog On Demand) any time he wanted! ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/27 "2010-04-12T17:40:14Z")
Such a sad accident. I am somewhat hopeful though that better Russian-Polish relations can spring from the disaster. At least that’s how it seems from perusing some internet forums with plenty of Poles and Russians (poor sample, I know), who normally are at odds and unfriendly towards each other. The subsequent handling by the Russian side appears to have left a good impression on Poles, and the tones are reconciliatory and respectful, and full of gratitude. It has been very nice to see that they have been able to put their animosity aside and pay respect to the victims, almost entirely without crackpot theories and assigning blame, which have sprung mostly from third party nationals and medias. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/28 "2010-04-12T18:02:47Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Seriously? Not to speak ill of the dead, but someone who would try to force a pilot to land in conditions he feels are unsafe shouldn’t be running a municipal dump, much less a country. “force” would be a poor choice of words. How about “implore” as in: “Captain, if it’s at all possible see if you can make it in”. That reads: “if I find out you could have made it you will be flying a desk”. We have seasoned pilots who have flown into (and not out of) weather because they made a bad decision. This was done without the stress of a big wig trying to arrive on time. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/29 "2010-04-12T18:41:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > “force” would be a poor choice of words. How about “implore” as in: “Captain, if it’s at all possible see if you can make it in”. That reads: “if I find out you could have made it you will be flying a desk”. > > We have seasoned pilots who have flown into (and not out of) weather because they made a bad decision. This was done without the stress of a big wig trying to arrive on time. I wasn’t trying to in any way, shape, or form blame the pilot - my statements were directed solely against a hypothetical powerful person who would “force”, “implore”, or even “suggest” that a pilot attempt something the pilot had already been instructed by the tower not to do. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/30 "2010-04-12T18:42:36Z")
[**Russia points to human error in fatal Polish crash**](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_re_eu/eu_poland_plane_crash;_ylt=AmOm3KrLBk5xkxTBr9SnjNxn.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZWZlbXEzBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1jaGFubmVsBHNsawNydXNzaWFwb2ludHM-) > [@](#): > > \*\*…The pilot had been warned of bad weather in Smolensk, and was advised by traffic controllers to land elsewhere — which would have delayed the Katyn observances. > > He was identified as Capt. Arkadiusz Protasiuk, 36, and the co-pilot as Maj. Robert Grzywna, 36. Also in the cockpit were Ensign Andrzej Michalak, 36, and Lt. Artur Zietek, 31. > > In Warsaw, there was concern the pilots may have been asked by someone in the plane to land at Smolensk instead of diverting to Minsk or Moscow, in part to avoid missing the ceremonies. > > In Warsaw, Polish Prosecutor General Andrzej Seremet said Polish investigators talked to the flight controller and flight supervisor and “concluded that there were no conditions for landing.” > > “The tower was advising against the landing,” Seremet said. > > The plane was equipped with an instrument landing system, or ILS, said Col. Wieslaw Grzegorzewski of the Polish Defense Ministry. > > “I can confirm the pilots were preparing for landing without the ILS system,” he said. “The airport didn’t have the ILS system.” > > Russian media reports said the Smolensk airfield is a former military air base that lacks equipment for automatic landings. > > The business daily Kommersant said Monday that about 50 military personnel maintain the airport which is used only sporadically for official visits. It said the airfield has no permanent traffic controllers, and they are brought from the city of Tver when it’s necessary. > > Kommersant also said that that the pilots had been informed about the bad weather in the area while the plane was still over Belarus, but the captain said he would see conditions for himself and then make a decision. > > Polish investigators said they will listen to the cockpit conversations recorded on the black boxes to see if there were “any suggestions made to the pilots” from other people aboard the plane. > > Other Russian officials said the pilots were offered the chance to land in Moscow, Minsk or Vitebsk, but they chose Smolensk, despite four failed attempts before the fifth and fatal approach…\*\* Colossal fuck-up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/31 "2010-04-13T01:21:04Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I wasn’t trying to in any way, shape, or form blame the pilot - my statements were directed solely against a hypothetical powerful person who would “force”, “implore”, or even “suggest” that a pilot attempt something the pilot had already been instructed by the tower not to do. Well here’s the thing, the pilot wasn’t instructed to divert, it was just an advisory. If the airport was below minimums they would have been diverted or put in a holding pattern until visibility minimums were met for an approach. If they had a ceiling of 200 ft and and RVR of a 1/2 mile that may have been enough to make the attempt. It doesn’t mean the pilot will make it. Imagine punching through clouds at 200 ft above the ground (descending at 500 feet per minute) and the runway is juuust off to the right by 100 feet. No cigars but there is nothing stopping another attempt. Any pilot will tell you that a missed approach isn’t a confidence builder. ---
**Author:** ![US\_News\_Review](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@US\_News\_Review](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/US_News_Review)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/32 "2010-04-25T08:42:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well here’s the thing, the pilot wasn’t instructed to divert, it was just an advisory. If the airport was below minimums they would have been diverted or put in a holding pattern until visibility minimums were met for an approach. If they had a ceiling of 200 ft and and RVR of a 1/2 mile that may have been enough to make the attempt. It doesn’t mean the pilot will make it. Imagine punching through clouds at 200 ft above the ground (descending at 500 feet per minute) and the runway is juuust off to the right by 100 feet. No cigars but there is nothing stopping another attempt. Any pilot will tell you that a missed approach isn’t a confidence builder. Much of what the world knows about the Polish plane crash is based on what RUSSIA has reported. Polish investigators say that people should withold judgement on the cause of what happened since these investigations usually take months for answers. Polish authorities report its troubling that less then 24 hours after the crash, Russian authorities were saying with CERTAINTY, that “Pilot error” and that the pilot is soley to blame for the reason of the crash (Could Pilot error be because of incompetent Russian air traffic instructions that Russia ignores?). Early Russian reports that the plane took 3-4 attempts to land have now proven to be false. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703763904575196100835030916.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703763904575196100835030916.html) Also it took an inordinary amout of time for Moscow to provide the black boxes to Polish investigators. The fact that the Russian airport at Smolensk REMOVED radar system devices used to land planes at this airport, DAYS BEFORE this crash, is troubling. So is the fact that Russian children in the distance were able to describe in detail, how the Polish plane right before it crashed, looked liked, and that it was hitting power lines in “THICK FOG” is strange. How could these Russian kids observe all this in the distance with “THICK FOG” which was reported by Russia?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674.md?page=1)