OMG, I never realized how bad Challange of the Superfriends was...

Cafe Society
21

I loved this cartoon, as a kid - even still. I just love Wonder Woman involved stuff.

I loved the episode where the Legion of Doom was going to get rid of the Most Powerful Heroes. Lex Luthor planned if they could replace the Big Three, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern (not Batman) they were going to change their origins.

Cheetah was sent to Paradise Island to compete for WW, she was given special rigged Bracelets and beat Diana, Cheetah came back to the LOD as a Blonde WW, with the outfit, Magic Lasso, then she became Cheetah, making WW as never existing.

Lex Luthor took Hal Jordan’s place and became Green Lantern, and we see him in the LOD with the Green Latern Uniform and wearing the Ring, he also transforms himself and GL never exists.

Then the LOD gets underway and changes Superman’s origin and changes his ships course away from Earth, to be a normal person, Superman never exists.

But, Batman and Robin, Flash, Hawkman, etc find log entries for members that they never knew, anyway they go to change the outcomes so the LOD doesn’t erase the members, that really exists.

22

There are some things that are being overlooked in Justice League that niggle me.

The Flash’s character and the underuse of Superman are the problems I have truble dealing with.

I am a big Flash fan. Have been for a long while and figure him to be one hell of a hero (in his most recognized form…I cant stand half the off shoots of him like Impulse). That said, I just cannot fathom why they have him be rather a bumbling womanizer who seems to have a real problem avoiding being tripped. I mean come on…how many times can the guy get knocked out by being tripped by a beam or floating object or what? If he was the fastest man alive, you would figure he would foresee the calculations of what if he did so and so. Also he seems to have trouble catching up to things (like the car in the Gorilla Grodd episode…give me a break). Overall, I am disappointed by this version of Barry Allen.

The underuse of Supes seems to be something that Bruce Timm painted himself into a corner and may be changed in the future, but for now I feel that Supes has been cast as such a powerful character that they do not know how to use him since mostly he can be the simple solution to a small problem.

I do like the revisions they did to some of the older enemy characters (Solomon Grundy, Grodd, Joker back in his old insanity role throughly pissing off everyone and still remaining freaky) and I do enjoy some of the heroes personifications (Hawkgirl is really hardnosed and stubborn to a fault when it comes to fighting and Batman is obviously in his original Dark Knight mode -I LOVED the way he played the Injustice Guild off each other and his solution with the Humanite) but I feel its still lacking somewhat in the story department.

Back to the OP…the original was made by mongloids for mongloids and I gleefully look forward to CN skewering them in every commercial they can make (I just want a pair of pants…a decent pair of PANTS)

23

So, superheroes using a multipurpose aircraft instead of exerting themselves automatically makes a bad TV show? I suppose Olympic atheletes are stupid if they own cars since they could run faster than rush-hour traffic moves…

24

  1. None of them needed a jet. They can all fly. They can all fly faster than a jet.

  2. In the event a character cannot fly, Green Lantern can move them with his power ring rather than using a jet. He could make his own jet with his power ring.

In other words, the characters are doing things the hard way for the sake of the story (if they’re not in the jet/submarine then they can’t have the “exciting” jet/submarine chase) rather than use the simplest application of their abilities, something that was always a problem with Superfriends.

25

You are completely forgetting that they were on a rescue mission to save the crew of a sinking sub. Even if Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern could fly, the sub crew could not. Also, not being superpowerful (or having the benefit of a ring-powered force field), the sub crew would not have been able to withstand the deep-sea pressures long enough for Superman or Wonder Woman to transport them to safety.

And, IIRC, since the sub sent out an SOS and mentioned they were under attack, it would be safe to assume that GL might be busy combatting the Atlanteans and would not be able to create a force field big enough to contain all the sub crewmembers.

26

In which case any one of them lifts the submarine out of the water rather than trying to transfer them over to the jet. Or Green Lantern can put a bubble around the sub crew (for a while I thought they had just massively depowered him, but he did such a thing in other episodes) and since the whole thing would take him a matter of seconds while leaving Superman or Wonder Woman available to deal with the agressors.

Having a jet along just gives them something to be attacked in. And it’s not just this one sequence, it’s something I’ve noticed in every episode I’ve had the misfortune to see; characters fail to use the most basic of their abilities because it would end the story right then instead of letting it drag out for fifty more minutes. The Flash being unable to catch a speeding car, for example, or Green Lantern being unable to navigate in space suddenly (since he can always find Oa then he can’t get lost). The writers lack the ability to write for characters capable of as much as they are (even stripped down as they clearly are) and have them act like idiots so that the plot can continue. Unfortunately it’s a bit hard to root for a gang of idiots…

27

I like Brunching’s ratings even better:

Rating: Superfriends

Rating: More Superfriends

Rating: The Legion of Doom

28

Just Some Guy, sounds like your expectations of cartoons far outstrip real life sometimes…Green Lantern can’t get lost in space just because he knows where Oa is? Does that mean I can’t get lost in El Paso just because I know where Austin is? Man, I’d hate to watch your “perfect” superhero show - everybody would use every possible power at all times simply because they can, and nobody would ever make mistakes or be surprised by the unexpected…

29

Solemon Grundy wants pants too!!!

30

The Justice League’s Flash is Wally West, not Barry Allen. Barry’s dead (died in the Crisis, assuming that hasn’t retconned in the last few years).

31

Well, since you know how to get from Austin to your house, if you’re in El Paso and intuitively know the direction and distance to Austin and can get there in ten minutes or less then you shouldn’t sit around whining about how you’ll never get back to your house because you’ll be wandering the earth forever without finding it.

These aren’t “Oh, I hadn’t thought of that.” These are basic, elementry uses of their abilities. Superman didn’t realize he didn’t need a jet? He conveniently forgets that he flies everywhere until just that scene? What kind of moron do you take him for? And since they’ve already blown their “Characters act completely incompetant for the sake of the story” change I have a whole lot less tolerance for it when they keep doing it again and again and again and again.

My perfect superhero show either wouldn’t have people as powerful as Superman or Green Lantern in it or it would give them conflicts they shouldn’t be able to resolve in a matter of seconds.

32

Dude, I walk to Grand Central Station most every day on my way home. That doesn’t mean that sometimes I don’t take a cab.

33

Who ever said that Superman “conveniently forgot he could fly”? Why fly when you can ride? As I said before, just because an athlete might be able to run faster than rush hour traffic, are they “conveniently forgetting that they can run” just because they drive somewhere? Superman and Wonder Woman might get tired after a long flight, and Green Lantern’s ring needs to be recharged daily. But I guess it’s just stupid of them to conserve their powers when going into an unknown situation to rescue some sailors - and never mind the capability to transport the sailors without relying on GL’s ring, which might be unavailable for that duty if there’s a fight.

The simple fact is that Justice League is a damn sight better than any other TV treatment of the DC Comics characters (ok, maybe not as good as the animated Batman from the '90s) and, even if it has a few minor flaws that some people fixate on. It’s a genuine effort at creating an animated drama about the DC Comics superheros, and it’s better than 90% of the crap on TV.

Let’s see, going on Just Some Guy’s line of reasoning (and speaking of other crap on TV)…

Why didn’t Capt. Kirk just send a shuttlecraft down to rescue Sulu and the landing party when the transporter was unusable because it was creating evil duplicates?

Why didn’t Jack, Janet and Crissy just point out that Jack’s name was on the lease, so Mr Roper (and later Mr Furley) had no legal grounds to evict him on, so Jack didn’t have to pretend to be gay?

Why did the residents of Hazard County keep re-electing a crooked, incompetent sherriff?

Why didn’t Ethel just tell Lucy she was a nut and was on her own next time she had a scheme to get into Ricky’s show?

Why didn’t Col Blake and Col Potter get in hot water with their superiors over Hawkeye’s behavior, especially after some of the stunts he pulled with officers outside the 4077th (I mean, really, just how many jeeps did he steal in the eleven years that unit served in a three year war?)? And how come nobody ever got promoted except Radar and Klinger?

34

**

Because Gene Roddenberry hadn’t invented the shuttlecraft yet. :smiley:

**

Was his name on the lease?

**

Never watched the show; but there are plenty of places where nominations are run by party machines.

**

Because Ethel was her friend and didn’t want to hurt her feelings.

**

Ya got me on this one…

Actually, Frank Burns got promoted when he left the unit. I believe Mulcahy got a promotion along the way too.

Zev Steinhardt

35

Just Some Guy: Your criticisms aren’t really criticisms of the Justice League cartoon, they’re criticisms of the superhero genre in general. The Flash and Superman have always been very problematic to write consistent stories for. The traditional Flash could run the speed of light, except for when actually going that fast would hurt the story, thus his speed varies greatly depending upon who’s writing him. Likewise, Supes’ strength and speed vary quite a bit from writer to writer, depending upon the needs of the story.

Superman being a part of the JLA has always been likewise problematical. Any villain powerful enough to give Supes a challenge is going to outclass the rest of the league, save perhaps GL, and any villain(s) who are a good balance for the likes of the Hawks and Batman is going to be too easily taken out by Supes and GL.

There are ways around this, four of them actually. First, use a team of villains matched to the superheroes. Second, have the more/less powerful heroes off on vacation, in outer space, etc. Third, split the team and have the more powerful heroes occupied with the powerful villains while the less powerful find and exploit their weakness or destroy a power source, evil mastermind, etc. Fourth, have the more powerful members disabled by their unique weakness or some supernatural source that the ordinary heroes aren’t vulnerable to (the Justice League comic tended to use magic to disable Superman a lot).

Look at SpiderMan (I know, Marvel, but a good examle nonetheless), and you’ll find some wildly fluctuating strength and speed, and a spider sense that ranges from supersensitive to nonexistent at the writers’ whims.

My point is that the type of thing you are criticising, though sometimes legitimate, is a flaw inherent to the genre. Fans of superhero comic books have learned to give the writers a great deal of lee way to deal with such issues as needed in order to tell a good story, and are likely to forgive such in the cartoon version of The Justice League as well.

On to the OP. I loved HR Pufinstuff as a kid, and it’s almost painful to watch now.

36

Saying that something is poorly written is not an indictment of the genre. There have been numerous quality Superman and Flash stories over the years though at the same time there have been an awful lot of awful stories because the writers can’t maintain consistancy from panel to panel (or in the case of the Justice League series, from scene to scene). That’s a problem with the writers, not a problem with the genre. The good authors for the superhero genre avoid falling in the trap of having the characters be incompetant to add to the “drama” (or at the very least give enough characterization to show why the character would have such a blind spot).

37

Zev, the shuttlecraft had at least been mentioned in earlier Star Trek episodes, if not shown (I don’t remember off hand if they had been shown yet).

JSG, I agree that better Flash and Superman stories have been written. But have better DC superhero team stories ever been shown on TV? Justice League is still the best TV/Movie treatment they’ve ever had, and is a damn sight better than Superfriends could ever have hoped to have been - not only story-wise, but also in terms of animation quality (SF was done by Filmation, world leaders in low-quality cheap-ass animation) and quality of voice-actors. Your original argument that Justice League is as bad as Superfriends still doesn’t hold water. It’s like insisting that The A-Team was as good as Law and Order.

38

Zev, until you get superpowers of your own I think it would be wise to limit your criticism of those who have them. Neither you, I nor anyone else on this board (If someone here has made a substantiated claim to superpowers (Cecil doesn’t count) I would appreciate a link) have any idea what an overwhelming burden these fine protectors of “truth, justice and the American Way” operate under.
:slight_smile:

39

Not just the best commercial ever, but the best thing ever.

“Can’t… move… feet… stuck… to floor!”

40

Law And Order isn’t much good either, as an accurate depiction of the U.S. legal system, anyway. :wink: