# Omnibus Stupid MFers in the news thread (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945 "2021-01-31T21:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 378
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7551 "2023-06-01T07:15:00Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If gender-neutral pronouns were the norm, and some conservatives said their preferred pronouns were she/her or he/him, would you respect their choices? Conservatives have choice? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7552 "2023-06-01T12:58:25Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > I’m old. Hopefully it will come easier to younger people. And y’know what? I can respect _that_. Y’know, people, yes it’s the Pit, but really, people stumble trying to adopt new ways? Infinitely better than _rejecting_ the new ways. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7553 "2023-06-01T13:42:53Z")
My inner grammar nazi chafes at the singular they, but I still use it when asked. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7554 "2023-06-01T13:50:24Z")
It is very old. “Someone left their book on the seat.” “Is their name inside?” “No, they didn’t! Who writes their name in a book?” ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7555 "2023-06-01T13:55:15Z")
Yup - I get the long-time usage, but my inner grammar nazi is (by definition) an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7556 "2023-06-01T14:12:38Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I know it marks me as a hopeless troll, but after a degree in English literature and a lifetime of reading I simply cannot bring myself to use “them” “they” “their” &c to refer to a single person. It’s like fingernails on a blackboard. Don’t forget your history of the English language. Modern English has already transitioned away from singular second-person pronouns. I suspect thou dost not find that grating. It’s now transitioning away from singular third-person pronouns. We suspect the language will eventually get around to transitioning away singular first-person pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7557 "2023-06-01T14:35:19Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > We suspect the language will eventually get around to transitioning away singular first-person pronouns. This is a serious matter, stop trying to amuse us. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7558 "2023-06-01T14:45:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > We suspect the language will eventually get around to transitioning away singular first-person pronouns. > > This is a serious matter, stop trying to amuse us. - I like @Pleonast, I think they’re very amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7559 "2023-06-01T15:13:06Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > If gender-neutral pronouns were the norm, and some conservatives said their preferred pronouns were she/her or he/him, would you respect their choices? > > The thing is, I would, as I suspect most liberals would - because we respect other people’s boundaries It’s simple courtesy - calling someone _“they”_ or _“them”_ doesn’t hurt me in the least, but clearly means something to them. Using their preferred pronouns really isn’t anything more than consideration, rather like calling someone by the name they prefer. It’s simply being polite. This very question recently came up in my company’s internal bulletin board, so I checked the University of Google. The first attested use of _“they”_ as a gender-neutral singular pronoun was in _1375._ This is nothing new. > [@Monty](#): > > I really have to force myself to say “you” instead of “y’all” while I’m teaching. Oh, now, this is my hobbyhorse. In my mind, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with _“y’all”_ (except when people use it as a singular). It’s a contraction of _“you all”_, and completely legal according to the rules of English grammar; as in any other contraction, the apostrophe marks the elided letters. In my lifetime, I’ve seen _“y’all”_ spread out of the South and be picked up by other American dialects, albeit slowly. I suspect that in 200 years, either _“y’all”_ or _“you guys”_ will have become the standard second-person plural pronoun for American English. (Which is why it bugs me when people use it in the singular, or misspell it _“ya’ll”_, because they clearly think of it as a quaint folk term for _“you”_, instead of a perfectly cromulent pronoun. But that’s a rant for another thread.) ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7560 "2023-06-01T15:45:22Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I think they’re very amusing. Shouldn’t that be “I think they is very amusing.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7561 "2023-06-01T15:46:59Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > In my mind, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with _“y’all”_ (except when people use it as a singular). I thought “y’all” was singular. The plural is “all y’all”. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7562 "2023-06-01T15:51:12Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It’s simple courtesy - calling someone _“they”_ or _“them”_ doesn’t hurt me in the least, but clearly means something to them. Using “they” or “them” when you don’t know if that’s what they want, however, can also result in hard feelings. I have a woman friend whose name is recognized in her field, who gets really steamed if she is referred to as “they” instead of “she” in a publication about her work. I asked her what they should if they don’t know her preference, and she said “ask.” As in so many fields, hers is dominated by men, often only by virtue of their sex, and she views it as important that women are recognized as such, when they want to be. It appears there is no safe pronoun choice, and it is incumbent upon one to find out what each person wants. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7563 "2023-06-01T15:51:31Z")
The only people I have ever heard using “Y’all” as a singular pronoun are non-natives who had read one of those stupid “How to speak Southern” guides. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7564 "2023-06-01T15:57:20Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > In my mind, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with _“y’all”_ (except when people use it as a singular). > > I thought “y’all” was singular The plural is “all y’all”. Why would a contraction of _"you all_ be singular? It’s basic English grammar: _“you”_ = one person. _“Y’all”_ = two or more people. _“All y’all”_ = many people. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Using “they” or “them” when you don’t know if that’s what they want, however, can also result in hard feelings. I should have been more clear - simple courtesy is to refer to people by whatever pronouns they, or he, or she, prefers. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7565 "2023-06-01T16:00:00Z")
> [@pjd](#): > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > I think they’re very amusing. > > Shouldn’t that be “I think they is very amusing.” ? No, it should not. The second-person pronoun “you” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular. Likewise, the third-person pronoun “they” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7566 "2023-06-01T16:05:00Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The second-person pronoun “you” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular. Likewise, the third-person pronoun “they” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular …but that “they” in running\_coach’s comment would replace a “he” or “she”, not second-person “you” or third-person “they”. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7567 "2023-06-01T16:24:10Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > there’s absolutely nothing wrong with _“y’all”_ (except when people use it as a singular). It’s a contraction of _“you all”_, and completely legal according to the rules of English grammar; as in any other contraction, the apostrophe marks the elided letters. Heh, I’ve used _y’all_ for a single person, differentiating it from _all y’all_ for a large group. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7568 "2023-06-01T16:34:46Z")
> [@pjd](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > The second-person pronoun “you” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular. Likewise, the third-person pronoun “they” is always grammatically plural, even when it’s semantically singular > > …but that “they” in running\_coach’s comment would replace a “he” or “she”, not > second-person “you” or third-person “they”. Which makes it semantically singular; but it’s still grammatically plural. English is weird. Nothing new about that; English has been weird for a very long time. Possibly it’s just that human language is weird; because humans are weird. Even the ones who aren’t W.E.I.R.D. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7569 "2023-06-01T16:37:56Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I like @Pleonast, I think they’re very amusing. Hate to see a straight line like this not get picked up for two hours. I believe the correct response is, “we are not amused!” ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945/7570 "2023-06-01T17:21:11Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > The only people I have ever heard using “Y’all” as a singular pronoun are non-natives who had read one of those stupid “How to speak Southern” guides. I’ve lived in the South all of my life. I hear Y’all used as singular frequently. You have to be careful and pay attention, but it happens, among natives. It is used as a singular when using the singular “you” could be considered rude or imposing. For example, if there is a big show coming to town (let’s just say a popular musician who is beloved by everyone) and you ask a co-worker of the opposite sex: “Are you going to see [big star] at the arena?” That could either be considered an invitation or put the co-worker in an uncomfortable situation of admitting they have nobody to go with. or “Are y’all going to see [bid star] at the arena?” That would never be considered an invitation (unless the one asking has a extravagant habit of hosting large parties at such events) and they can say, “no, the timing’s not good,” and nobody is being rude. Another example: Suppose you live in an apartment and the exterminator is going around making appointments for spraying for pests. Even for a one-bedroom apt with a young adult, single occupant on the lease, he (assuming the exterminator identifies as male) is much more likely to ask “Are y’all gonna be home tomorrow between noon and 4? If not, I want to come in and spray, if that’s OK.” It would be rude for him to assume the occupant does not share the living space with anyone else, so y’all is used. Now, I had to really pay attention to the actual words to catch this nuance. It just rolls off the tongue and right past the brain if you let it. But, in general, **Maus\_Magill** is correct. A native speaker would always use use “you” if the context is unambiguously singular and when being unambiguously singular would not be considered rude or intrusive, even in the deepest parts of Alabama or Georgia. The converse is not true, of course. Such a native speaker will often use “you” in the plural sense, it just depends on the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945.md?page=377) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-stupid-mfers-in-the-news-thread-part-1/931945.md?page=379)