# Omnibus Super Bowl XLVI Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425 "2012-01-23T19:51:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/141 "2012-02-06T08:01:57Z")
I’m less upset about this loss than 2006, only becaue it didn’t cost us 19-0. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/142 "2012-02-06T11:04:02Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > \*\*\* _Legacy Watch_ > > Eli Manning: Hard to say. This doesn’t make him Canton-bound by a damn sight, but it does at least put him within shooting distance. > > Tom Coughlin: Again, not Canton-bound, but if he wins a third we’ll have to have some very serious discussions about it in 8 years or so. Ha! They both just stamped their ticket. The only question now is does it take them a few years to get or do they get in by unanimous first ballot. Two-time Superbowl MVP not yet deserving of the Hall? Is there any other two-time Superbowl MVP _not_ in or destined to be in the Hall? One of the things that defines your legacy is who you beat. Big Ben got to beat up on scrubs from the NFC West, and barely squeaked by both times. Once he faced a real franchise the Superbowl streak was over. Big brother Peyton gets to hang his hat on beating Rex Grossman. Eli’s competition has been the best in decades. As in, pick a losing Superbowl team, now think of that franchise in that era, and compare them to the 2000s Patriots. (Best I can come up with is Patriots beating the Rams.) ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/143 "2012-02-06T11:19:31Z")
Eli is 99% certain to go to the HoF. If I remember correctly, only 1 QB who has won 2 Super Bowls isn’t in Canton (Jim Plunkett - who was MVP in only 1 of them). It would be a turn up for the books if Eli didn’t get in now, with 2 MVPs under his belt - plus he’s won a lot of playoff games on the road (you could argue he’s had to go on the road because he is not good enough in the regular season to get home field advantage - but I would say that his post season record on the road - especially his passer rating - marks him out as being a great, big game QB). I have no dog in the fight (either for Eli to the HoF or in last night’s game) incidentally. Kudos to the Giants - great game last night overall and thought the Giants were deserving winners. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/144 "2012-02-06T11:30:20Z")
Okay, [this](http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/02/not_so_safety_c.html) is way over the top Brady-bashing from a disgruntled Patriots fan. And they say NY media is harsh; oofa. But I did chuckle a bit at this line: > [@](#): > > The Patriots haven’t won a title in seven years, but even worse, they’re now turning into the Buffalo Bills, with the Giants being their Cowboy daddy. Zing! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/145 "2012-02-06T11:53:57Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Tom Coughlin: Again, not Canton-bound, but if he wins a third we’ll have to have some very serious discussions about it in 8 years or so. Even now someone could make a really interesting case for him given his (unprecedented?) success with the Jacksonville expansion franchise. Coughlin’s record is better than Marv Levy’s record, and Levy is a HoF’er. That doesn’t stamp Coughlin’s ticket, but it should provide food for thought. Not including yesterday’s Superbowl win… ``` Levy - Coughlin ``` Seasons as head coach 17 16 NFL games coached 274 274 Overall NFL record, including playoffs 154-120 (.562) 153-121 (.558) Playoff record 11-8 11-7 Place on all-time coaching wins list 17 18 Playoff seasons 8 9 Super Bowl wins 0 1 ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/146 "2012-02-06T12:56:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Whoever had the Giants 9, Pats 0 square is very happy right now. That would be me! $100 for the first quarter and $100 for halftime. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/147 "2012-02-06T13:03:51Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The Giants are the worst team to ever win it, that’s for sure. They didn’t deserve to be anywhere near this game. > [@garygnu](#): > > The Giant were the luckiest opponents of teams that beat themselves and you know it. Enjoy being Giants fans. I just edited the Wikipedia page for “Sour Grapes” to add your posts as examples. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/148 "2012-02-06T13:40:39Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > \*\*\* _Officiating Watch_ > > I thought the game was pretty well officiated. > > Now, I’m not one for complaining about the refs, and maybe I missed a couple bad calls going the other way, but I did think that the officials missed two calls (in the Patriots’ favor) that had the potential to be hugely important. There was the holding call in the 1st half on a good run up the middle: possibly correct according to the letter of the law, but barely more than what happens on nearly every snap, and very ticky-tacky given that this was a game when the refs seemed to be purposefully keeping the flags in their pockets whenever possible. Second, of course, was the pass interference non-call on 3rd down late in the 2nd half. It was a close enough play to be non-ridiculous given the aforementioned laissez-faire officiating approach, but I still think the defender got there early enough to warrant a flag. > > Still, there was nothing egregious, they got a couple of very difficult calls correct without needing replay, and overall I truly appreciate that they didn’t turn the game into a flag-fest. Huzzah to John Parry and crew! Did you miss the first Patriots possession, or are you just happy to let the elephant in the room hang out unremarked upon? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/149 "2012-02-06T13:46:37Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Did you miss the first Patriots possession, or are you just happy to let the elephant in the room hang out unremarked upon? It was the right call. If one is pointing out questionable calls, it doesn’t belong. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/150 "2012-02-06T14:22:34Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > And I don’t have to hear that stupid Tom Brady song on the drive to work tomorrow. (I switch between ESPN and NPR.) He’s Tom Brady and he knows it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/151 "2012-02-06T14:29:26Z")
Why did Eli get MVP? It seems like Manningham deserves it far more. Eli, as usual, was only mediocre with a few dashes of greatness. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/152 "2012-02-06T14:35:28Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > \*\*\* _‘Giants won the Super Bowl, that makes them the best team’…_ > We’ve probably had this argument before, but: Nah. They won the Super Bowl, that makes them the Champion. It only makes them the best team if we posit that a good team can never lose a game to a less good team. But that’s ok, because being Champion is enough. I give the same argument to college football fans who keep calling for a playoff, saying “Prove who’s best on the field!” and all that. A one-game championship or even a several game playoff is never going to prove who was the _ **best** _ team of the season. Better teams get upset in a single game all the time. Nobody is going to argue that this year’s Kansas City Chiefs were a better team than the Packers, but they still beat them. Even so … there isn’t a _perfect_ way to find the best team without a true round-robin. The NFL’s system is pretty darn good, and all hail the Super Bowl Champion New York Giants (even if I really can’t stand ‘em, and even though they were 0-2 against the Redskins, for cryin’ out loud…) > [@VarlosZ](#): > > Second, of course, was the pass interference non-call on 3rd down late in the 2nd half. It was a close enough play to be non-ridiculous given the aforementioned laissez-faire officiating approach, but I still think the defender got there early enough to warrant a flag. The worst part about this play, in my mind, was that Al Michaels wouldn’t shut up about it. He kept going on about the possible interference for what, three or four plays following? Come on, man. It was a close play, could probably have been called either way. It wasn’t a miscarriage of justice or anything. Heck, Blackburn got away with a pushoff on Gronk when he intercepted Brady earlier, and Michaels made nary a peep. I don’t think that play was worthy of a PI call either, mind you, but it was interesting to see the different attention called to them. This game was really a tale of two throws. Brady was just a touch off on his pass to Welker, so he couldn’t pull it in. Manning made a stupidly ridiculous perfect pass and Manningham made a stupidly ridiculous catch. Advantage, G-men. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/153 "2012-02-06T14:45:14Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Why did Eli get MVP? It seems like Manningham deserves it far more. Eli, as usual, was only mediocre with a few dashes of greatness. Manningham had a good game ( 5 for 73), and that fantastic catch. That catch, however, was made possible by a perfect throw by Manning. Manning was 20 for 30, including the 9 receptions in a row to start the game. Hakeem Nicks actually had a better game than Manningham. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/154 "2012-02-06T15:02:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Ha! They both just stamped their ticket. The only question now is does it take them a few years to get or do they get in by unanimous first ballot. > [@Cumbrian](#): > > Eli is 99% certain to go to the HoF. You guys are way too confident. First, number of rings isn’t going to be quite as important to Hall selectors as it used to be – still huge, yes, but less so. The importance of statistical analysis will go up, and the culture of statistical analysis comes with a distaste for giving individuals credit for team achievements. More importantly, Eli’s numbers to date have WAY too much Jim Plunkett in them for him to be a Hall of Famer today. Look at the leader board sections on the pages for the QBs who have won exactly 2 Super Bowls: [Bart Starr](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StarBa00.htm) [Bob Griese](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrieBo00.htm) [Roger Staubach](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StauRo00.htm) [Jim Plunkett](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlunJi00.htm) [John Elway](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm) [Eli Manning](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm). Bart Starr: NFL MVP, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 1st Team All-Pro, low passing yardage totals, but great passer ratings: seven Top 5s including three times leading the league. Three times leading the league in Interception Rate. Plus of course his two Super Bowls were numbers I and II. Excellent numbers even aside from the Super Bowl wins. Bob Griese: 8 Pro Bowls (6 after the merger), 2-time 1st Team All-Pro, also low yardage totals with excellent passer ratings: after the merger he had seven Top 10s including a 1st a and a 2nd. Really good numbers even aside from the Super Bowl wins. Roger Staubach: 6 Pro Bowls, six times in the Top 5 in passing yards, four times leading the league in passer rating (and seven times in the Top 10), three times leading the league in interception rate. Plus the whole Cowboys-America’s Team-Landry-Dynasty crap (seriously, though, from '71-'79 Staubach’s Cowboys played in 6 Conference Championships and 4 Super Bowls, which as a team accomplishment exists on different plane from the admittedly impressive run of Eli’s Giants). Superb numbers even aside from the Super Bowl wins. John Elway: 1 NFL MVP, 9 Pro Bowls, eleven times in the Top 10 in yards (including a 1st and a 2nd), four times Top 5 in passer rating (five times Top 10), six times Top 10 in interception rate. 4th on the All-Time yardage list. Played in 5 Super Bowls. Very big numbers even etc. Eli Manning: 2 Pro Bowls, four Top 10s in passing yards, which is good after 8 seasons. Even better passing TD numbers, though that matters somewhat less. Two problems:this was his first year ever in the Top 10 in passer rating (he was 7th), and his career passer rating is currently 21st among active players, and of course this means that his YPA and Comp% aren’t too good. So, overall, most of his passing stats are pretty meh, and he really needs for those to be better to make up for his interception numbers, which look _awful_. That’s the big problem. Twice he’s led the league in picks, and there’s also a 2nd, a 4th, and a 7th in there. His interception rate is pretty lousy. Needless to say he’s thrown more picks than anyone else since he came into the league. Plunkett had basically the same problem: some good yardage numbers, but never a good passer rating, and always too many interceptions. Don’t get me wrong: Eli now has a very decent shot at getting into the Hall eventually. He’s shown steady improvement for almost his whole career, and he has a really nifty receiving corps around him now, so I’m confident his career numbers will look better than they do now when he retires. Plus he has a reputation as a clutch-y winner, and that’ll help him with the selectors. And of course it’s possible that he wins another SB even if his numbers don’t change all that much, and three really would be automatic. OTOH, if he never get back to the Super Bowl and if this year’s performance winds up looking kinda flukey – if he goes back to having “10th most yards and 2nd most interceptions” type seasons – he ain’t getting in. We’re riding the crest of a ridiculous wave of passing statistics, and if you play QB in this era and your numbers aren’t at least in the same ball park as the Manning-Brady-Brees-Rodgers types for at least a good chunk of your career, the HoF selectors will laugh you out of the room. Unless you’ve won three Super Bowls, of course. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/155 "2012-02-06T15:08:04Z")
As for Coughlin in the Hall: Jimmy Johnson won 2 Super Bowls and isn’t in (and it’s looking like he never will be). George Seifert won 2 and will never get in. Ditto Tom Flores. I’m pretty sure that Coughlin isn’t there yet. I actually looked up Marv Levy’s numbers and compared them to Coughlin’s myself within the past couple of months. Coughlin does compare favorably in most ways, but remember that the HoF is largely about telling a story instead of measuring achievements, and four straight SB losses is a hell of a story. Championships or no, those Bills teams defined their era as much as any other franchise. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/156 "2012-02-06T15:17:26Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Did you miss the first Patriots possession, or are you just happy to let the elephant in the room hang out unremarked upon? I can’t tell you for sure what Brady thought he saw, but there wasn’t an eligible receiver within 25 yards of the pass, and on the film I didn’t see any WRs who were obvious candidates for “route miscommunication.” Probably it was the right call. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/157 "2012-02-06T15:19:27Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > remember that the HoF is largely about telling a story instead of measuring achievements, and four straight SB losses is a hell of a story. Championships or no, those Bills teams defined their era as much as any other franchise. This to me looks like an argument that Eli will get into the HoF. If it’s about “a story” then, given Peyton is going in as a mortal lock, the “kid brother of great QB who won 2 Super Bowls with drives in the dying seconds” seems like a pretty good story to me. Your points are taken on his numbers (though you don’t seem to be including his post season numbers, which will be a big part of any case that is presented for him) - maybe he will have to improve. But he’s got this story thing going for him already as far as I can see. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/158 "2012-02-06T15:30:47Z")
Yeah, I do think those sorts of intangibles will help him when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/159 "2012-02-06T15:33:56Z")
Number are always going to be secondary in determining who gets into the HOF because the voters are sports writers, and those guys primarily deal in narratives and subjective analysis. There are plenty of guys with unimpressive numbers in the Hall (Joe Namath and Lynn Swann\*, to name two). \*This is part of Lynn Swann’s player description on the HOF’s website: “Graceful moves, tremendous leaping ability led to superlative catches that highlighted career …” Not exactly a sabermetric analysis, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425/160 "2012-02-06T16:15:00Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > Eli is 99% certain to go to the HoF.. Not quite yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-super-bowl-xlvi-thread/610425.md?page=9)