# On Abolishing Taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033 "2013-09-17T06:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/21 "2013-09-17T17:40:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > High amount of tourists spending money on a small population. I really can’t see that working here. But that doesn’t mean tourist money flows to the state. If the businesses that the tourists are dealing with are private businesses, then no money goes to the state. It’s only if there is some sort of taxation on the tourists or their spending that the state would gain any income from the tourists. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/22 "2013-09-17T17:48:08Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Not so. If the polity owns property it may enjoy revenue from that property which is not taxation. That is true - you just have to look at Saudi Arabia, which survives off its oil revenue without much popular oversight. However, that point helps to demonstrate that taxes are essential to a democratic system. If the government can survive off property revenues, then it doesn’t need popular consent. But the more a government needs to rely in taxes to fund government operations, the greater the likelihood that it will need to get se sort of popular consent, which in time tends towards a democratic system. That was certainly the case with the development of the parliamentary system in Britain. In France, the high level of taxes on the poor was a major contributing factor to the French Revolution. And, of course, in both the US and in the later British North American colonies, control over taxation was crucial to the development o popular government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/23 "2013-09-17T17:57:53Z")
> [@Gateway](#): > > -Taxes go against property rights. I make a deal with another to trade my labor for their money. The labor is done and the money is given. Then a stranger comes and takes some of that money under threat of force. This is theft but when the government does it it is called taxes. Apart from the word the two actions are the same. > > \ > > -The government is chosen by the people, it is said, so they have a right to take your property. Nay: The armed robber, even if many people agreed that he can take your property, would make him entitled? Nay. It is still a robber. By those arguments, government has no legitimate sovereignty and you are not legitimately obliged to obey the law or the government in **any** respect. Is that your actual position? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/24 "2013-09-17T18:16:22Z")
If you don’t pay taxes to support the military, then some country that does pay taxes to support the military will come along and enslave your country, and make you pay taxes to support their military. That might not happen today, but it has happened often enough in the last hundred years that “we don’t need to pay taxes” isn’t realistic if you don’t want to be a slave. As you say, there is no where on earth you can go that isn’t a desolate wilderness where you don’t have to pay taxes of one kind or another. Governments have got the whole planet under their jackboots. Why do you think that is? A libertarian system of no taxation and no government has to be able to defend itself against muggers, bandits, raiders, conquistadores, and invaders who don’t play by libertarian rules. If the libertarian system can’t do that, then it can’t exist, because the libertarians will be robbed and enslaved by the non-libertarians. So why can’t you declare your house independent of the statist authoritarian fascist tyranny that everyone else lives under? You can. But the fascists won’t care. As long as it’s just play-pretend then they’ll ignore you. But if you try to not pay your taxes, they’ll send around guys with guns to collect the taxes. And if you resist, they’ll shoot you in the face. And there are lots of them, and only one of you. So now what? This is the problem of human governance. We have to get along with each other somehow. And human beings can be assholes. So how do we deal with the assholes among us? How do we create social systems that allow us to get along with the assholes and put them to work in a way that causes us the least amount of grief? Bearing in mind that to a lot of people I’m the asshole that they have to try to put up with. So I’m an asshole, you’re an asshole, and so are most people. So what next? Freedom? What happens when I come over to your house and take all your stuff? Do you and your friends come over to my house and take it back? And then I get my friends and go over to all your friend’s houses and take all their stuff? And suppose I have a lot more friends, and my friends are all tougher than your friends? And suppose my friends are Mongol warriors who live their lives in the saddle and like the thought of taking other people’s stuff and enslaving them rather than working for a living? Yes, life would be a lot better if human beings stopped being such assholes all the time. But they are assholes, so wishing they weren’t assholes isn’t going to work. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/25 "2013-09-17T18:21:23Z")
This brings up an interesting question: Is there any country, maybe apart from chaotic places like Somalia, in which a citizen has to pay no taxes at all of any kind? He can receive as much money as possible from services or goods and nobody will ever tell him that by law, a percentage of it needs to go towards something else? That the land he owns under his feet is his forever even if he was penniless, it would still be his because he has to pay no upkeep on it? Does such a country exist? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/26 "2013-09-17T18:24:31Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > I think Alaska has no state tax. > [@](#): > > To finance state government operations, Alaska depends primarily on petroleum revenues and federal subsidies. [Alaska - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#Taxes) Note that the state sucks money from federal coffers. So indirectly, Alaskans pay the state but the feds do the collecting. Can you say welfare state? There are a host of local taxes to pay for everything else. Your comment may be factually accurate, but its intent is not. Alaskans pay taxes, and have managed a way for the rest of the 49 to pay their taxes as well. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/27 "2013-09-17T18:29:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Neigh! The problem with all these threads are all the neigh sayers…sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/28 "2013-09-17T18:50:20Z")
> [@](#): > > -Taxes go against property rights. I make a deal with another to trade my labor for their money. The labor is done and the money is given. Then a stranger comes and takes some of that money under threat of force. This is theft but when the government does it it is called taxes. Apart from the word the two actions are the same. As already noted, the taxes are for services rendered. Do you LIKE things like streets, clean food and water, police and fire fighters and all the other myriad things your taxes pay for? Did you think they were all free? When you pay taxes, you are paying your share for those services. And if you don’t like the services, well, you have the choice of trying to vote in elected officials who propose an agenda similar to what you are looking for or moving to another country. Taxes are the price you pay to live in THIS one. > [@](#): > > -The governments’ motivation, it is said, is for the common good, but is this always what happens? Nay. Furthermore if an armed robber demanded your property for the common good, are you obliged to give your property to him? Nay. Silly analogy. The government isn’t taking your money for no service rendered, while the robber is. You can’t elect the robber, nor have any influence on what he takes from you OR what he does with the money. Arguments such as the one in the OP are like an onion…they stink and make your eyes water reading them. > [@](#): > > -The government is chosen by the people, it is said, so they have a right to take your property. Nay: The armed robber, even if many people agreed that he can take your property, would make him entitled? Nay. It is still a robber. Again, nothing like a robber. Pretty much part of human civilization as far back as we’ve been humans. If you are in a hunter gatherer band, then you contribute to the whole with your labor, hunting, gathering or whatever. If you live in a country then you contribute to the whole by paying taxes which are used to build roads, schools, sewer systems, pay for fire and rescue, police, military and to look into the breeding habits of flat worms. It’s all part of living in and contributing to the community, town, state and nation you live in. > [@](#): > > -The majority of the world lives in taxes, so there is no option of which the author is aware that you can go where their is not either taxes, poverty, or simply wilderness. This does not necessarily attest to the superiority of taxes, as I am not aware of a society which has made an attemtp to live without taxes. Well, you could move to Somalia…I doubt they have regular tax collection going on there. Other than that I suppose you could find a deserted island somewhere to set up shop and live the good life, tax free. > [@](#): > > -We wouldn’t last without forced taxation, people say.The people would not contribute and the country would collapse as its courts, police, and other government functions would break down. To this as of yet I have no adequate reply, so please write your thoughts. What thoughts? Without taxes then pretty much everything that you take for granted would go away. The only real question is where to set the bar, i.e. who to tax and how much to tax them, not whether there should be a bar at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/29 "2013-09-17T19:14:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have to pay taxes because we force you to. If you don’t pay your taxes we’ll send the police to arrest you and put you in prison. If you resist the police will kill you. > > Complain all you want that this isn’t fair. We don’t care. We’re bigger than you and we can do what we want to you. This. Libertarianism only works if everyone else plays nice while the libertarian acts like a selfish douche. It’s really lousy at dealing with a world full of selfish douches. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/30 "2013-09-17T20:01:57Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Libertarianism only works if everyone else plays nice while the libertarian acts like a selfish douche. It’s really lousy at dealing with a world full of selfish douches. Imagine a country with a million people based on complete libertarian principles - each person is a sovereign individual who is not subject to the control of anyone else. Now imagine that twenty people out of this million decide to band together and form a tribe. While they’re a small number in comparison to the overall population, the twenty of them are strong enough to defeat any individual and take what they want from them. Anyone who tried to remain true to libertarianism will be vulnerable. The only people who’ll be able to resist will be those individuals who band together and form their own tribes. Some of these tribes will act ethically and just defend themselves. But some of them are going to follow the example of the first tribe and start preying on lone individuals. Some libertarians will try to argue you can have a tribe and still be libertarian in it. I’d ask how well a tribe is going to work if every member of the tribe has the right to refuse to do anything he or she doesn’t want to. A tribe without some structure of rules is just a crowd. It’s not an issue of ethics. It’s an issue of what works. An organized group of people is more effective than an unorganized group of people. The unorganized people can’t compete and you end up with nothing left except organized groups. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/31 "2013-09-17T20:04:47Z")
“I like paying taxes. They buy me Civilization.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/32 "2013-09-17T20:06:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “I like paying taxes. They buy me Civilization.” > > - Oliver Wendell Holmes Huh, shows you what he knows. You can get it on Steam for like a dollar I think…and I believe it’s tax free. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/33 "2013-09-17T20:12:25Z")
Taxes, shmaxes. I rather have my glittery Elvis. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/34 "2013-09-17T20:25:36Z")
Abolish Texas? Really? Hmmm…can we keep parts like Austin and The Alamo while we let Dallas and the Houston Ship Channel and Lubbock go? What? Oh, TAXES. Sorry about that - carry on. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/35 "2013-09-17T20:36:34Z")
30+ posts and the OP has not returned to address anyone’s comments? I think you all huwt his feewings. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/36 "2013-09-17T21:01:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Imagine a country with a million people based on complete libertarian principles - each person is a sovereign individual who is not subject to the control of anyone else. > > Now imagine that twenty people out of this million decide to band together and form a tribe. While they’re a small number in comparison to the overall population, the twenty of them are strong enough to defeat any individual and take what they want from them. . . . The classic Hawks and Doves model from early Game Theory. What’s kind of fun is that it could work in reverse. A small enclave of serious, meaningful, dedicated, honest, and perfectly moral libertarians, in a larger context of statists, could accomplish a lot. For instance, since their community would never have any property crimes, insurance rates would be lower there. They could get by paying less in taxes for police protection, because – no crimes. They would not litigate in courts, so that community would pay less for lawyers, judges, courtrooms, and so on. They would have a meaningful advantage over the surrounding country. But, of course, this only works if you set aside the ugly facts of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/37 "2013-09-18T10:23:23Z")
Basically, libertarianism is this generation’s Marxism - lovely idea, if you ignore human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Gateway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gateway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gateway)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/38 "2013-09-19T03:58:18Z")
I am not going to address everything right now but… -It seems that some are saying that taxes=civilization. Does anyone have any proof for this? -How the government I am thinking of would be paid for is by donations. I know you guys won’t go for this, but again: do you have any objective proof it won’t work? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/39 "2013-09-19T04:07:00Z")
We don’t have to prove it won’t work. You are the one proposing the theory, you have to prove it will work. ---
**Author:** ![Gateway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gateway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gateway)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033/40 "2013-09-19T04:16:37Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > We don’t have to prove it won’t work. You are the one proposing the theory, you have to prove it will work. We are BOTH proposing a theory. Me saying it MIGHT work, you that it won’t work. If you are adamantly against what I am saying, then I am asking why. Well maybe not YOU, but if you are not saying it wont work we are not debating. If someone thinks it won’t, I want to hear why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abolishing-taxes/669033.md?page=3)