# On abortion, homosexuality, strangers, meddling, and personal belief **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748 "2003-06-05T02:01:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/21 "2003-06-05T13:01:16Z")
FAIRLY legal? It either is or it isn’t. And it is. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/22 "2003-06-05T13:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Did you mean to mis-use the English language to manipulate the conversation? A three month old _baby_ is one that was born three months ago. What you are refering to is a three month old _fetus_. A fetus is no more a baby than an chicken egg is a baby chick. \*\* Oh please. The term **baby** has several meanings…both medically descriptive and, for lack of a better term…social use. I expect that since you leaped in here to point out the erroneous use of the term **baby** in this thread, you will do the same in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187900&highlight=geobabe) thread or any other thread where a poster uses the term “baby” in a non-developmental fashion? It’s fair to say that the term “baby” seems perfectly understandable to the folks in that thread and other threads where people discuss their unborn baby. Interesting that you have a problem with that term here. Why golly…you better fire up that email client and tell Dr Sears, probably the most famous pediatrician in the good ol USA that he doesn’t know his [embryology](http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/T011100.asp). I’m sure he’ll appreciate the heads up. Why shoot fire, those morons over at [BabyCenter](http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment/) are doing the same thing…look at all the references to “your baby has grown…” etc… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/23 "2003-06-05T13:56:08Z")
The problem was with the phrase “three month-old baby” which no reasonable person would take to mean a fetus. When someone asks you how old you are do you measure from th time you were born or the time you were conceived? The political use of “baby” for fetus or embryo is simply a cheap, semantic tactic designed to define a fetus into personhood. Yes, many expectant parents will refer to a developing fetus as 'baby" because they intend to have it and are preparing themselves for the eventuality of a fully developed and born infant. It’s a term of endearment and pre-natal attachment but that doesn’t make it medically, biologically or legally correct. Doctors will use it too, if a woman intends to have the baby, but, again, it’s a colloquial use of the term not a medical one. Some people call their pets or their cars their “babies.” Does that prove that dogs and cars are babies? give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/24 "2003-06-05T14:13:17Z")
**Diogenes** > [@](#): > > The problem was with the phrase “three month-old baby” which no reasonable person would take to mean a fetus. Were one to read that phrase isolated from context you’d be right but **pkbites** specifically said "Bah. I’ll bet a 3 month old baby feels plenty harmed _while it’s being sucked out of it’s mothers womb."_ I think it’s safe to say that one need not be an unreasonable person to infer that by “baby” **pkbites** meant “fetus”. In fact, the context is _so_ clear that I’d go so far as to say that alternative interpretations are unreasonable. > [@](#): > > When someone asks you how old you are do you measure from th time you were born or the time you were conceived? That depends. I think (although I can’t find a cite, this is purely anecdotal) that it is quite common practise in Japan to count ones ages from ones conception. > [@](#): > > The political use of “baby” for fetus or embryo is simply a cheap, semantic tactic designed to define a fetus into personhood. Personhood? _Personhood?!?_ Why would a pro-lifer want to define a fetus into _personhood_. Personhood only matters to pro-_choicers._ Since Pro-lifers defend _human lives_ and not _persons_ (due to the fact that the term ‘personhood’ exists solely to ensure that pro-choice arguments run with a minimum of conflation) I must disagree with your contention that pro-lifers call fetuses babies solely to score points. Could it be that pro-lifers view them as equivalents? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/25 "2003-06-05T14:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The problem was with the phrase “three month-old baby” which no reasonable person would take to mean a fetus. \*\* To a certain degree I agree with that statement. People don’t generally phrase their description in exactly the same parlance as was used earlier. A pregnant woman might say something like “my baby is 3 months along” etc… rather than refer to a “three motnh old baby” However, in the context of **this** thread, especially with the followup post…it’s clear what meaning for “baby” was intended. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yes, many expectant parents will refer to a developing fetus as 'baby" because they intend to have it and are preparing themselves for the eventuality of a fully developed and born infant. \*\* Interesting that you have this insight into the way that all parents (who use that term) think. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Some people call their pets or their cars their “babies.” Does that prove that dogs and cars are babies? give me a break. \*\* Nice strawman. I didn’t claim that the mere use of the term “baby” established its identity in a legal or embryological fashion. I stipulated that plenty of folks (including parents, doctors etc) use the term to describe a developing zygote/embryo/fetus…(as in the mere use of the term to describe a z/e/f shouldn’t get people out of whack) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/26 "2003-06-05T14:29:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Personhood? Personhood?!? Why would a pro-lifer want to define a fetus into personhood. Personhood only matters to pro-choicers. Since Pro-lifers defend human lives and not persons (due to the fact that the term ‘personhood’ exists solely to ensure that pro-choice arguments run with a minimum of conflation) I must disagree with your contention that pro-lifers call fetuses babies solely to score points. Could it be that pro-lifers view them as equivalents? I really don’t care how pro-lifers view them. The problem is when those pro-lifers want to force everyone else to see it the same way. I have no idea what you think the distinction is between a “human life” and a “person,” but a fetus is neither. It may be human _tissue_ but so is a fingernail. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/27 "2003-06-05T16:45:55Z")
I am as unequivocably pro-choice as anyone I know or have ever read about. I acknowledge that people who oppose abortion on pro-life /do-no-harm grounds have a basis for argument that does not exist for people who are against homosexuality and which exists only on the most tenous basis for people who are against (let’s say) the smoking of marijuana. Generally we hold that it is permissible to intervene where harm is done. You (pro-life) folks point out that it doesn’t require a particularly wrenching twist of the brain to perceive a way in which it could be said that abortion does harm. It kills an embryo or fetus. The embryo or fetus is human. We (pro-choice) folks point out that harm is done if abortions are prohibited. Since it does not necessarily hold that the proper role for the state is to keep its hands off whenever the issue is complex rather than clear-cut, and since we _are_ in essence claiming that the issue is complex with degrees and possibilities of harm being scattered all across the terrain here\*, I’d like to apologize to pro-life people if it seems to you sometimes that we are saying that the issue is simple and obvious and that your concerns should be dismissed as irrelevant. I do not think your concerns are irrelevant or dismissable. I think that as far as the behavior of the state is concerned, your concerns are outweighed and overruled, but that’s different. I would certainly hope that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the individual pregnant women who make the reproductive decisions take those same concerns into account when they weigh the matters in their heads. I believe such decisions to be life-and-death decisions, decisions of great majesty and importance, decisions not to be made lightly. Decisions that should rest with them and them alone, for all that, _not_ because all of that is not true. - As I am not the designated spokesperson for all pro-choice people and we are not a monolithic lot ourselves, I’ll give a brief mention to the contingent of pro-choicers for whom it _is_ a simple cut-and-dried decision because to them it’s “sneeze city”, just tissue, no issue, strictly a function of bodily sanitation. Wipe and dispose. I do not think they constitute the majority of people with pro-choice sentiments but I could be wrong about that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/28 "2003-06-05T23:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*If someone believes that abortion is murder, it logically follows that they will do all they can to prevent it. Since this particular form of murder is fairly legal, rather than call the police, they take other actions. Not that I necessarily follow that line of thinking. \*\* Your post is exactly what I am talking about. “Not that I necessarily follow that line of thinking.” in not a very strong condemnation of those cowards who would shoot someone with a sniper rifle or plant a bomb, is it? It’s more like you’re turning a blind eye because he’s getting the job done but in a dirty manner. If you thought you had a halfway decent chance of finding out which groups supported this kind of terrorism, would you go out of your way to clean up the mess they cause to Christianity? As far as what they should do to prevent something that they think should be against the law but isn’t, the _only_ proper path to take is to attempt to change the law. They are not “taking other actions”. They are terrorizing and murdering men, women and children. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/29 "2003-06-06T01:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\* > As far as what they should do to prevent something that they think should be against the law but isn’t, the _only_ proper path to take is to attempt to change the law. > They are not “taking other actions”. > They are terrorizing and murdering men, women and children. \*\* In an ironic sort of way… I think most pro life folks that I’ve seen on these boards would agree with that statement… (although some might include non violent picketing as part of the political process). The only people that I’ve seen on the boards suggesting that one must use all forms of response, including violence have been some **pro choice** folks (zwaldd and Diogenes the Cynic in a previous Pit thread, I think…and apparently Blalron seems to be suggesting a similar line of thinking here) that say if pro life folks **don’t** do that…they are not serious about their philosophy…or are pacifistic cowards. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/30 "2003-06-06T01:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The church is catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all. When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that head which is my head too, and ingrafted into the body whereof I am a member. And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated. . .No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were. Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. - John Dunne, Meditation XVII Donne was talking about death in that meditation, but I think that sums up in general why people feel they need to "meddle. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/31 "2003-06-06T03:40:44Z")
**Diogenes** > [@](#): > > I have no idea what you think the distinction is between a “human life” and a “person,” but a fetus is neither. It may be human tissue but so is a fingernail. Well, since the latter term is utterly worthless I see no reason to waste the pixels formulating a distinction. However, if you must have one how about this: A person is a synonym for newborn. A human life is the product of conception. The difference between a human conceptus and a fingernail is as obvious as the difference between human life and **A** human life. I know you’re aware of this difference since I myself (as well as several other pro-lifers) have explained it to you in past threads. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/32 "2003-06-06T03:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Were one to read that phrase isolated from context you’d be right but pkbites specifically said “Bah. I’ll bet a 3 month old baby feels plenty harmed while it’s being sucked out of it’s mothers womb.” Whether a 3 month old _fetus_ “feels harmed” by such actions is debatable. I contend that it does not and cannot at that stage be able to feel harm in any meaningful sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Hayduke\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Hayduke\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hayduke_Lives)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/33 "2003-06-06T04:28:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Whether a 3 month old _fetus_ “feels harmed” by such actions is debatable. I contend that it does not and cannot at that stage be able to feel harm in any meaningful sense of the word. \*\* At what age does the, “fetus”, feel the harm of abortion? 4 months? 5 months? 6 months? 7 months? 8 months? 9 months? A year and half, when the mother is tired of hearing it cry? At what age does the victim not feel harm while it’s life is being snuffed out? You seem to insist on being qualified to determine this. Now tell us!!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/34 "2003-06-06T04:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben Hicks \* > \*\ ***Diogenes** > > Well, since the latter term is utterly worthless I see no reason to waste the pixels formulating a distinction. However, if you must have one how about this: > > A person is a synonym for newborn. A human life is the product of conception.\*\* An utterly arbitrary and meaningless distinction. > [@](#): > > \*\*The difference between a human conceptus and a fingernail is as obvious as the difference between human life and A human life. I know you’re aware of this difference since I myself (as well as several other pro-lifers) have explained it to you in past threads. \*\* I’m aware of your attempts to fantasize a difference. I don’t recognize that one exists. Tissue is tissue. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/35 "2003-06-06T04:57:51Z")
Fine! If everyone is this touchy about abortion, we’ll just all agree to let the darn fetuses mature fully before harvesting them from their pods! No, wait, they’re not grown in pods! They’re grown in _people_ (yep, women are people, remember?)! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/36 "2003-06-06T05:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hayduke Lives!! \* > \*\*At what age does the, “fetus”, feel the harm of abortion? > 4 months? 5 months? 6 months? 7 months? 8 months? 9 months? > A year and half, when the mother is tired of hearing it cry? > At what age does the victim not feel harm while it’s life is being snuffed out? You seem to insist on being qualified to determine this. Now tell us!!! \*\* 90 percent of abortions occur in the first trimester. Virtually all of the rest occur in the second. Only a fraction of one percent occur in the third, and then only for compelling medical reasons. So this poor-suffering-fetus thing is pretty much a straw man. If “feeling” is your criteria then I’m sure you have no problem with abortions that occur at the zygote or embryo stage. [soapbox]BTW, if pro-lifers really wanted to stop abortion they would support the morning after pill which prevents ovulation, thus prevents conception. Because a lot of pro-lifers have it their heads that emergency contraception is an “abortion pill” (which it emphatically is not) they have made a concerted effort to prevent it from being readily available at many pharmacies.[/soapbox] ---
**Author:** ![Hayduke\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Hayduke\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hayduke_Lives)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/37 "2003-06-06T05:10:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*An utterly arbitrary and meaningless distinction. > I’m aware of your attempts to fantasize a difference. I don’t recognize that one exists. Tissue is tissue. \*\* And at what age is “tissue” a human being? You seem to insist to have the authority to determine this. So, tell us. I’ll bet you say the age is somewhere before whatever age you are now!😛 I’ll bet you consider yourself more than just “tissue”, don’t you, **Cynic**. I’ll bet if someone stuck a [gun](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187024) in your face and claimed you were just “tissue”, not worthy of a chance at life, I bet you would disagree! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/38 "2003-06-06T05:30:34Z")
It’s a person when it’s born. It’s a human being when it’s no longer inside of _another_ human being, who has rights of her own. As long as it’s in a woman’s body, it’s _part_ of her body, and her rights have to supercede the rights of a fetus. After all, we know for _sure_ that a woman is a person. The personhood of a fetus is a matter of opinion. The rights of an entity which is _undisputably_ a person trump the rights of something which some people merely like to _think_ of as a person. ---
**Author:** ![Hayduke\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Hayduke\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hayduke_Lives)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/39 "2003-06-06T05:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The rights of an entity which is _undisputably_ a person trump the rights of something which some people merely like to _think_ of as a person. \*\* Soooooooooo…if a woman is 3 months pregnant and someone socks her in her belly and she lives but the, um, “fetus” dies, there is no crime right? Except for misdemeanor assult of the woman. Right? I take it then that her “opinion” that her baby (fetus) was a person is not valid, and the person doing the punching can not be charged with any kind of homocide. What if the act takes place while the woman was walking to an abortion clinic? ---
**Author:** ![Hayduke\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Hayduke\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hayduke_Lives)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748/40 "2003-06-06T05:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hayduke Lives!! \* > \*\*What if the act takes place while the woman was walking to an abortion clinic? \*\* I meant to add: Then is there not only no crime, but does she owe the perpetraitor money for “services rendered”.😛 ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion-homosexuality-strangers-meddling-and-personal-belief/179748.md?page=3)