# On abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925 "2024-10-17T17:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/41 "2024-10-18T01:31:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There are basically two kinds of late-term abortions: partial birth abortion and early delivery. A partial birth abortion is where the fetus is partially birthed and terminated before it comes out. The term “partial birth abortion” is a right wing political term designed to make it sound evil. And is realistically only going to be done when the fetus is already dying or dead. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/42 "2024-10-18T04:57:01Z")
I know a woman who had an abortion at 9 months. Well, i actually worked with her husband. They were very excited about having a baby. He shared ultrasounds. Then she went into labor and we didn’t hear anything from him for a while. I forget the exact details, but it came to a choice of saving the mother or saving the baby, and the doctors chose to save her. (She wasn’t actually capable of making choices at that point, i believe, having lost too much blood.) Obviously, she and her husband were in shock and mourning. But if it had been me, i would have wanted to survive, even if it killed the baby. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/43 "2024-10-18T05:01:15Z")
I also know two women who had preclampsia. One was far enough along that they did an emergency c-section. She was in intensive care for two weeks, but her baby did well for a preemie, and was out of the NICU before her mother was released from the hospital. The other was much earlier in her pregnancy, and had an emergency abortion. She was devastated, emotionally as much as physically. Late term abortions suck. They are usually tragic. But i don’t think they should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/44 "2024-10-18T18:38:49Z")
There’s another point that is being forgotten. Over-zealous prosecutors are going to go after every woman who has a miscarriage. Innocent until proved guilty, ha ha. She will still have to pay a lawyer, give up weeks of her life, maybe lose her job. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/45 "2024-10-18T19:58:38Z")
Completely between a woman and her doctor. If there’s a problem with the doctor, it can be resolved with his AMA peer group, who would presumably know more about the subject than some bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/46 "2024-10-18T20:22:43Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Parents have rights to make medical choices on behalf of their children. Heck, spouses and guardians have the right to make medical choices on behalf of other adults. > > If a doctor and parents can make the extremely tough medical decision to end the suffering of their 7-year-old child, shouldn’t parents and doctors be able to make the extremely tough medical decision to end the suffering of their 7-month-old fetus? Why does the government get to set hard rules that they can’t? @Norse are you going to acknowledge this? ---
**Author:** ![TeroSunbear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terosunbear/32/14748_2.png) [@TeroSunbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeroSunbear)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/47 "2024-10-18T20:54:05Z")
The whole week counting business is for lawmakers. If healthcare is your primary goal, the doctors would have endless guidelines for different situations. Depending on the problem and whether it is a risk for the fetus or the mother, the age of the fetus would vary for EACH medical problem and its solution. So arbitrary lawmaker rules such as “12 weeks” really are to make the voters happy. They need to feel something or other about whether the fetus is a person or not. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/48 "2024-10-19T02:59:48Z")
I think abortion should be permitted because a fetus/embryo has no moral personhood/value and the woman’s autonomy overrides any biological entity’s claim to her body. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/49 "2024-10-19T03:07:31Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > To me, abortion isn’t only about the woman’s right to decide about her own body, it’s a balance between the woman’s right to decide over her own body and the unborn child’s right to a life. Your personal struggle to find the proper balance between these two considerations is irrelevant to someone else’s, and your personal opinion about where that balance lies will matter exclusively if and when you are the person who is pregnant. And once you reach your conclusion about where that balance lies there is absolutely no need for you to impose that conclusion upon other people. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/50 "2024-10-19T03:22:10Z")
This, exactly this. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/51 "2024-10-19T04:03:09Z")
I agree. @Kyomara, perfectly said. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/52 "2024-10-19T07:09:19Z")
Yeah. Thing is, even a fully adult, definitely-a-person individual has no right to force you to use them as a life support system; therefore, the personhood or otherwise of a fetus is irrelevant (or should be). It’s just that a special exception to the rules is carved out to excuse persecuting women. And persecuting women is _all_ that the anti-abortion movement is about, everything else is simply an excuse. They constantly violate their own supposed principles in the service of that and their own convenience, because those “principles” are just an excuse for their malice. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/53 "2024-10-19T13:06:05Z")
The talk here has been from the POV of mothers, doctors, politicians, do-gooders (on both sides). How about one child’s POV? I was born in 1961 and adopted at 4 days old, though apparently the adoption had been arranged pre-birth. I do not know anything about my blood-parents, don’t want to. My parents are the people who raised me. The woman who bore me did not really have a choice in the matter, or at least not a good one. I am very fortunate that I was adopted by essentially good people who gave me a good, loving childhood and raised me lovingly and well. Now, as an adult, I like my life and I think I have done some small good in the world. But. Had abortion been easily and safely obtainable in 1961 I might never have been. And that thought does not bother me AT all. I would never have known … anything. A fetus has no hopes and dreams, no opinions, and no free will or desire to live beyond that at the cellular level. What makes me ‘Me’ is in small part automatic genetics, and mostly my life experiences. Had I not been born it would not matter one iota in the grand scheme of things. Other people’s hopes and dreams might have been shattered by my abortion, and I as a conglomerate of cells might have felt some brief pain, but that is NOTHING compared to the lifelong pain that so many people endure simply because someone said that ending a pregnancy is evil. Abortion is hard on adults. And adults are selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/54 "2024-10-19T13:20:17Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Had abortion been easily and safely obtainable in 1961 I might never have been. And that thought does not bother me AT all. I would never have known … anything. A fetus has no hopes and dreams, no opinions, and no free will or desire to live beyond that at the cellular level. What makes me ‘Me’ is in small part automatic genetics, and mostly my life experiences. Had I not been born it would not matter one iota in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. All of us are ultimately one chance event from never having existed, and there’s no point in angsting over it. Forget abortion; all it would take is a different sperm or different egg to win the gestation lottery and someone completely different would be in our place. A problem with the whole “potential person” argument is that there are a _basically uncountable_ number of “potential people” who will never exist. So the whole argument goes straight into “every sperm is sacred” territory if taken seriously, since every last sperm or egg cell that goes unborn is a potential person that will never exist. And even then it’s physically impossible for us to ensure that even a minuscule percentage of potential people exist, even if there was room in the world for so many people which there isn’t. People working themselves up into a guilt trip over people who aren’t actually real is self destructive, and persecuting _other_ people in the name of those nonexistent people is outright immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/55 "2024-10-19T13:42:27Z")
It isn’t a “personal struggle”. I just cant fathom the lack of nuance on both sides of the table over there on the left side of the pond. And I’m impressed that you guys are pulling medically necessary abortions into the discussion. West European countries have a time limit for **elective** - not medically necessary - abortions. That limit varies by country, between 10 and 24 weeks. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe) We don’t have the extremely polarized debate you guys have. Different countries have reached different compromises between the woman’s right to their own body and the unborn child’s right to life, but nowhere - except from a small minority of crackpots - can we see that kind of trench warfare you guys have. And with that, I’m checking out, because it’s become pretty obvious that it isn’t possible to have any kind of civilized discussion on this topic here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/56 "2024-10-19T14:04:26Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > It isn’t a “personal struggle”. I just cant fathom the lack of nuance on both sides of the table over there on the left side of the pond. And I’m impressed that you guys are pulling medically necessary abortions into the discussion. This is because you are totally unaware of the nature of the recent abortion laws in the US. Even if there is a carve-out for abortions to save the life of the mother, it’s written so vaguely that doctors are afraid they might be prosecuted. And that means jail time as well as losing their license. So medically necessary abortions have been effectively banned. Also, you are apparently unaware that even under Roe v Wade, there were limits on purely elective abortions, which, surprise! varied by state. > [@Norse](#): > > And with that, I’m checking out, because it’s become pretty obvious that it isn’t possible to have any kind of civilized discussion on this topic here. Honestly, i would, too, if i had the luxury of knowing my daughter’s abortion rights were secure. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/57 "2024-10-19T14:11:49Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Had abortion been easily and safely obtainable in 1961 I might never have been. And that thought does not bother me AT all. I would never have known … anything. My sister has said much the same. She was an unplanned 4th baby, and despite abortion being illegal at the time, my mother’s doctor offered to terminate the pregnancy. (Back then, it was fairly easy for a doctor to write up an abortion as therapeutic.) [https://wapo.st/40cPVWo](https://wapo.st/40cPVWo) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/58 "2024-10-19T14:12:51Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Different countries have reached different compromises between the woman’s right to their own body and the unborn child’s right to life, but nowhere - except from a small minority of crackpots - can we see that kind of trench warfare you guys have. Really? It wasn’t so long ago that Ireland _finally_ liberalized its abortion laws after a [woman died extremely unpleasantly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) of untreated pregnancy complications. I think you are confusing “compromise” with women being crushed into submission and persecuted. And killed. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/59 "2024-10-19T17:15:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > you are totally unaware of the nature of the recent abortion laws in the US. Thanks for telling me what I’m aware of and what I’m unaware of. Of course you know that better than I do. EDIT: Mods, I think it’s time to move this trainwreck to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/60 "2024-10-19T17:21:09Z")
Moderating: At the request of the OP, this thread is moved to the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925.md?page=4)