# On abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925 "2024-10-17T17:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/61 "2024-10-19T17:50:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A problem with the whole “potential person” argument is that there are a _basically uncountable_ number of “potential people” who will never exist. My response to the if person X’s mother had had an abortion they wouldn’t be alive today, is the following. “At age 17 my Niece got pregnant, she was still in high school and was worried about how this would affect her life, but with the loving support of my brother and sister in law she raised him to a wonderful 14 year old. Back then she had a difficult decision to make and if she chose differently I wouldn’t have had my great nephew. Fortunately she made the right decision and had unprotected teenage sex. Perhaps we should make it mandatory.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/62 "2024-10-19T21:46:35Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > you are totally unaware of the nature of the recent abortion laws in the US. > > Thanks for telling me what I’m aware of and what I’m unaware of. Of course you know that better than I do. You asked: > [@Norse](#): > > I live in Northern Europe and have followed the US abortion debate with quite some interest. And then > [@Norse](#): > > Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t think anyone with a functional mind would oppose abortion if a fetus weren’t viable. And then > [@Norse](#): > > Abortion rights seem to me to be a very inflamed issue on your side of the pond. I want to understand the issues you have And then you act all surprised and say: > [@Norse](#): > > And I’m impressed that you guys are pulling medically necessary abortions into the discussion. If you don’t understand why we are talking about medically necessary abortions in this discussion, and think that no laws would oppose the abortion of a nonviable fetus, then you are clearly missing a lot of, um, nuisance in the US abortion discussion. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/63 "2024-10-19T22:11:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I also know two women who had preclampsia. One was far enough along that they did an emergency c-section. She was in intensive care for two weeks, but her baby did well for a preemie Yes, and hyperemesis gravida (sp?) is sometimes the reason for an abortion, as it can absolutely be life-threatening. Scholars believe it’s what killed Charlotte Bronte. My sister knew a nurse who had an abortion for this reason. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > nuisance Nuance? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/64 "2024-10-20T00:14:26Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Damned good questions. I’m a simple person. As I tried to say in the OP (but quite possibly failed to do): To me, abortion is a balance between the woman’s right to decide about her body, and the right of the unborn child to live. And the latter, to me, depends on the developmental stage of the unborn child. > > On the one hand, a woman should have the right to decide over their body. On the other hand, there’s an unborn child whose rights increases from zero at conception to something at the level of that of a living human being at birth. My issue is where do you draw the line? When should a woman ethically be free to abort the fetus? Very roughly speaking, that’s my position. Very roughly speaking, that’s the position of the authors of Roe v Wade. Here’s one summary, emphasis added: > State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother’s behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the **Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman’s qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman’s health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a “compelling” point at various stages of the woman’s approach to term.** Pp. 147-164. So yeah, Roe assumes a tradeoff. In the US, 3rd trimester abortions could be regulated before Roe was overturned. Generally speaking, 3rd trimester abortions occurred with patients who experienced medical complications but wanted to have the child. Roe was a reasonable attempt at policy, but it gave short shrift to those who claimed that personhood began at conception. I say “Claim”, because while abortion clinics were routinely protested, IVF clinics were not, despite the fact that IVF kills far more embryos than US abortions kill fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/65 "2024-10-20T00:24:29Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > nuisance > > Nuance? Oops, yes. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/66 "2024-10-20T01:39:57Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > It isn’t a “personal struggle”. I just cant fathom the lack of nuance on both sides of the table over there on the left side of the pond. And I’m impressed that you guys are pulling medically necessary abortions into the discussion. There actually is a good deal of nuance, as well as a good deal of discussion of medical necessity, over here on this side of the pond. It may not be coming through in the news where you are. It certainly isn’t coming through in the language of some of the vehement anti-abortion people; but they’re not the only ones in the discussions. > [@Norse](#): > > And with that, I’m checking out, because it’s become pretty obvious that it isn’t possible to have any kind of civilized discussion on this topic here. Oh. If you don’t recognize what’s been going on in this thread as a civilized discussion, then maybe it isn’t us who are incapable of nuance. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/67 "2024-10-20T02:22:46Z")
Indeed, I thought it was quite civilzed for an abortion thread. Obviously, YMMV ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/68 "2024-10-20T03:31:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Oh. If you don’t recognize what’s been going on in this thread as a civilized discussion, then maybe it isn’t us who are incapable of nuance. Well, seeing as it’s now in the pit, I’ll just say I am so unimpressed with the OP that I won’t be reading any other comments by this particular poster in the future. This is the first time they have popped up on my radar, and their conduct in this thread leads me to believe they aren’t worth the effort of engaging with. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/69 "2024-10-20T03:53:15Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Damned good questions. I’m a simple person. As I tried to say in the OP (but quite possibly failed to do): To me, abortion is a balance between the woman’s right to decide about her body, and the right of the unborn child to live. And the latter, to me, depends on the developmental stage of the unborn child. You are correct that there is little discussion of developmental stages, at least from the anti-abortion side of the aisle. Carl Sagan considered abortion in that context and came up with a dividing line at about 30 weeks. Here’s his 1990 essay, written with Ann Druyan. [http://humanist.de/wissenschaft/sagan001/](http://humanist.de/wissenschaft/sagan001/) > Other animals have advantages over us—in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought—characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That’s how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are. > Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain—principally in the top layers of the convoluted “gray matter” called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn’t begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy—the sixth month. > By placing harmless electrodes on a subject’s head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy—near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this—however alive and active they may be—lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/70 "2025-01-09T16:28:50Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > We don’t have the extremely polarized debate you guys have. Different countries have reached different compromises between the woman’s right to their own body and the unborn child’s right to life, but nowhere - except from a small minority of crackpots - can we see that kind of trench warfare you guys have. Not yet, anyway. But that kind of poison is easily transferred anywhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/71 "2025-01-09T17:30:50Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > A fetus isn’t fully formed before week 12 when most organs have been created, albeit only partially formed. At week 8, we only have a bunch of somewhat differentiated cells. At week 20-22, the fetus/child is viable outside the womb. > > If you don’t realize those fundamental biological facts, we will most probably not have a productive discussion. At week 20-22, it is _sometimes_ possible to keep a preemie alive, though probably severely disabled, _with the help of advanced medical technology._ If we’re talking about when a fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving outside the womb without extraordinary measures being taken, it’s more like 26-28 weeks. You are really not in a position to be lecturing anyone about “fundamental biological facts”! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/72 "2025-01-20T23:57:01Z")
> **[Yes, Ovia's Reproductive Health Apps Require Users to Input Their Country and...](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ovia-app-location/)** > > Social media users warned each other about the app's location requirements. Ovia’s reproductive health app requires users to input their country and state. Yeah, no way Republicans are going to subpoena private data about their users from them. (A FB friend is advising users to delete the app and warn other women.) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/73 "2025-01-21T00:23:37Z")
A baby born before 21 to 22 weeks CANNOT survive, because the lungs do not function. During my last semester of pharmacy school, I had a preceptor who in the mid 1970s worked at a hospital that did indeed do third-trimester abortions. They were not done on dying women with fatally deformed babies, that kind of thing; most of them were performed on teenage girls from middle- or upper-class families whose parents had just discovered they were pregnant, and were making them get rid of it, presumably to spare themselves the embarrassment. That hospital had to stop doing them because of people like her, who refused to dispense the meds. These girls would go through a full labor, that often lasted several days because their bodies hadn’t done any of its normal pre-labor preparations, only to give birth to a dead baby. They could have carried it just a few more weeks and placed it for adoption, if they couldn’t keep them. She had always considered herself pro-life, but she did dispense meds for earlier abortions because they were in a sanitary place that had a competent practitioner, and if they were going to do that, better they have it there than at a filthy storefront clinic (and there were some known such places in the Kansas City area, where she had lived at the time). ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925/74 "2025-01-21T00:28:56Z")
Hugs to all of you. TBH, the end result for her probably would have been the same no matter what decision she made. It’s never easy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-abortion/1008925.md?page=3)