# On an assault weapon ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469 "2016-06-15T22:04:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/481 "2016-06-30T17:30:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > It’s nothing more than an excuse. A lame one. > > > > When the gun lobby offers a _sincere_, excuse-free, cover-story-less “compromise”, we can certainly discuss it. But they haven’t and won’t, will they? > > It’s nothing more than an excuse. A lame one. > > When the gun lobby offers a _sincere_, excuse-free, cover-story-less “compromise”, we can certainly discuss it. But they haven’t and won’t, will they? The NICS has always been the blocker on that model, I do not remember if it is state privacy issues or if it is federal case law that was the blocker but if I think that they were concerned that it would be used to deny employment etc… The only category which would disqualify a buyer without court action that is on the list seems to be “Unlawful User/Addicted to a Controlled Substance” but I am not sure how they determine that. If they could prevent it from being used to deny people housing, jobs and other activities this is the type of legislation I could be talked into. It is far less nasty than bringing the unconstitutional no-fly list into the mix. I am surprised that it was submitted by a Republican because the “gun show loophole” is really a fight around the feds controlling intra-state commerce. I know I would only sell the rifles I inherited to people with concealed weapons permits because I couldn’t do a check privately. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/482 "2016-06-30T17:40:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I did provide information showing that machine guns are very rarely used in crime. I didn’t address your cites since they showed up in an edit after I responded to your post, but looking at them now I don’t think they even conflicted with any of my assertions. Then I agreed with you that correlation doesn’t imply causation – it is indeed impossible to show whether or not the federal restrictions are the cause of these statistics. So while I said it “seems to be” a success story, I’ll gladly take that back (and already did, multiple times). > > I think you’re really, really trying hard for an argument that’s just not here. > > I think you’re in the wrong room – arguments are down the hall. > > But I still love you. And I still think that the assault weapons ban is a dumb idea. Prove me wrong, if you still want to argue. > > Or if you want a nastier tone, HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF ADVOCATING FOR SOMETHING THAT I NEVER ADVOCATED FOR??? HOW DARE YOU PAVE OVER MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME??? > > 😉 So do you conceded that the lack of large numbers of criminal actions with machine guns does is not an example of successful and/or gun control legislation? There are other forms of gun control which have proven useful. The recent attempts have either focused on cosmetic features or seriously eroded the right to do process by removing a right purely due to governmental claims without due process. They were political pandering and/or bike shedding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/483 "2016-06-30T17:42:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So do you conceded that the lack of large numbers of criminal actions with machine guns does is not an example of successful and/or gun control legislation? Not conclusively, certainly. I do “conceded” this, happily, and I thank you greatly for helping to educate me. I got into this thread because I know a little but not much about guns, and I thought that this might be an interesting point of discussion, and I’m glad to come out of the thread with more knowledge than I had before. And I’m glad that you’ve stopped accusing me of advocating for things I never advocated for. 🙂 And I have you to thank for my brand new knowledge, so now I’ll count you as a friend. > [@](#): > > There are other forms of gun control which have proven useful. The recent attempts have either focused on cosmetic features or seriously eroded the right to do process by removing a right purely due to governmental claims without due process. They were political pandering and/or bike shedding. Sounds like we agree, then, just as (by my memory) we have on most issues. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/484 "2016-06-30T17:50:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I have you to thank for my brand new knowledge, so now I’ll count you as a friend. I learn a lot through debate, it may be the only way I can challenge my own ideas in a way that will actually lead to them changing. Also I will not engage with people I don’t respect. So while I am honored that you count me as a friend please never read my posts as coming from a point of place of anger. I embrace differences in belief unless they are being forced through law or violence on others. I am, as is everyone, mostly ignorant about every subject and that will always be true. Thank you to everyone on the dope for helping me challenge my own assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/485 "2016-06-30T17:55:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I learn a lot through debate, it may be the only way I can challenge my own ideas in a way that will actually lead to them changing. > > Also I will not engage with people I don’t respect. > > So while I am honored that you count me as a friend please never read my posts as coming from a point of place of anger. I embrace differences in belief unless they are being forced through law or violence on others. > > I am, as is everyone, mostly ignorant about every subject and that will always be true. > > Thank you to everyone on the dope for helping me challenge my own assumptions. If anyone doesn’t think the Dope brings people together, then just show them this post. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/486 "2016-06-30T18:53:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We DEMAND the ORIGINAL Birth Certificate!!:mad::mad::mad: > > :rolleyes: Who’s original birth certificate are YOU demanding? 😕 Meanwhile, back in the article you had previously linked - _In January, a federal district court judge rejected Obama’s executive privilege claim over records detailing the Justice Department and White House’s response to Operation Fast and Furious, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives investigation that may have allowed as many as 2,000 firearms to pass into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. In her ruling, U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson did not turn down Obama’s privilege assertion on the merits. Instead, she said authorized public disclosures about the operation in a Justice Department inspector general report essentially mooted the administration’s drive to keep the records secret._ The judge pointed out that the alleged constitutional scholar Obama had claimed Executive Privilege to hide Fast & Furious information from the public in spite of the fact that some of the information had already been made public. The judge essentially mooted most of the constitutional scholar’s phony claim. However, We the Voters are still waiting for full disclosure of Obama’s and Holder’s actions before, during, and after the F&F debacle. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/487 "2016-06-30T19:05:54Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > However, We the Voters are still waiting for full disclosure of Obama’s and Holder’s actions before, during, and after the F&F debacle. We the voters are still waiting for the ORIGINAL Birth Certificate!!! Hussien Obama was born in Africa and is a secret Muslim who is going to incorporate Sharia law right after he takes all our guns away with the UN troops poised to invade Texas!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/488 "2016-06-30T19:07:22Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The state that provided the numbers has an entire list…“assault weapon” is a term that was manufactured to be obtuse, and typically is applied based on cosmetics but the state of California has tried to make a list. So when you posted: > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Illegal machine guns seem to be just as common or more common as “assault weapons” in every body of data that I can find, and you are begging the question here you were doing it with the knowledge that “assault weapon” is a manufactured obtuse term, but still used it anyway in order to try to make an unfounded point? okay :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/489 "2016-06-30T19:09:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It seems to me that you haven’t made any claim that can be contested. Would you like to state a claim? Yeah sure, why not? I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. I guess I’ll stick with that for now. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/490 "2016-06-30T19:33:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We the voters are still waiting for the ORIGINAL Birth Certificate!!! Hussien Obama was born in Africa and is a secret Muslim who is going to incorporate Sharia law right after he takes all our guns away with the UN troops poised to invade Texas!!! > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If YOU say so. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/491 "2016-07-01T02:56:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So when you posted: > > you were doing it with the knowledge that “assault weapon” is a manufactured obtuse term, but still used it anyway in order to try to make an unfounded point? > > okay :dubious: Note the quotes? Also note that I was citing stats from a state that does have a definition for term which is a vague list of features and a random ever growing list of named products? But yes had I been the OP I would never have used the term. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/492 "2016-07-01T16:08:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems that heavy restriction and outright banning in some states has led to a significant drop in the amount of automatic weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens. Further, it doesn’t seem like only criminals have automatic weapons in the states that have banned it. That seems to fly in the face of “restricting and/or banning guns has no effect” Banning one subset of guns while leaving others freely available is not going to have much effect on crime. How much crime do you think was prevented by banning automatic weapons? Banning a subset of guns based largely on cosmetic/ergonomic features while leaving functionally identical guns (without pistol grips and adjustable stocks) in circulation is going to have an imperceptible (almost imaginary) effect on crime. The assault weapons ban is one of the most retarded gun control ideas that the gun control side has presented and it keep trotting it forward because the idea of an assault weapons ban polls well with low information voters. I don’t want guns to be a partisan issue but it has become one and this is one of the few cases where the Democrats rely on and take advantage of the ignorance of their voters. I do think its reasonable to use the machine gun registry as evidence that registration does not inevitably lead to confiscation. I mean if you were going to confiscate anything, you would want to confiscate the stuff subject to the NFA but in 80 years of registration, we have ever seen an attempt at the federal level to confiscate these weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/493 "2016-07-01T16:30:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Funny, I mentioned no goal. Also, are the states that have bans on automatic weapons suffering from tremendous amounts of crime committed with automatic weapons? If not, then the banning of automatic weapons has not allowed criminals free reign to commit crimes with automatic weapons. You seem to be arguing against a bumper sticker. You also misunderstand the statement “when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns” There is a pretty large difference between banning a teeny tiny sliver of firearms and banning all firearms. The bumper sticker phrase really only applies to a near total ban on guns. > [@](#): > > My argument is fully automatic weapons seem to be mostly legal, but heavily regulated and costly. The combination of these factors has seemed to lower the amount of fully automatic weapons being in circulation. Yes, after 80 years of high costs and regulation, there are fewer automatic weapons in circulation. Is THAT the objective? Machine guns were never popular among criminals compared to handguns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/494 "2016-07-01T16:38:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m pretty sure this is false. In terms of crime (and especially mass shootings, in which these would be the most dangerous), I’m almost certain it’s false. But I don’t have a cite handy (and nor, it seems, do you). A machine guns empties its magazine in a couple of seconds. If replacing magazines is a weak point for mass shooters, then I’m not so sure that they are THAT much more dangerous. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying “gun control does help” – I’m saying “machine gun restrictions have successfully made machine guns very rare in crime”. When weren’t they rare in crime? They didn’t actually ban the sale of new machine guns until 1986. Before that they were merely subject to registration. > [@](#): > > Most gun control in the US seems to have been a total failure, but this is one gun restriction that has mostly worked. How many lives do you think this ban on a tiny sliver of firearms has saved? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/495 "2016-07-01T16:44:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Alright, according to [this cite](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html), crime with automatic weapons is very, very rare. > > Good point that correlation does not imply causation. But at the very least we can say that there is no evidence that machine gun restrictions have failed, unlike many other gun control attempts in the US. > > But I’m not claiming anything about how “safe” machine guns are – I’m only trying to evaluate whether federal restrictions have been successful. It’s very hard, if not impossible, to prove that these federal restrictions are the cause of a very low rate of crime with machine guns. one way of measuring this would be to measure how many murders are committed with legally owned machine guns and compare that to how many murders are committed by illegally owned machine guns. Then take that ratio and compare it to the ratio of murders that are committed by legally owned fireams versus illegally owned fireams. There have only been two murders committed with legally owned firearms in the last 80 years. There have been many many more murder committed with illegally owned machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/496 "2016-07-01T16:57:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Banning one subset of guns while leaving others freely available is not going to have much effect on crime. How much crime do you think was prevented by banning automatic weapons? Well, luckily for me, I said nothing about effects on crime. WHEW! > [@](#): > > I do think its reasonable to use the machine gun registry as evidence that registration does not inevitably lead to confiscation. On this we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/497 "2016-07-01T17:00:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There have only been two murders committed with legally owned firearms in the last 80 years. Do you mean legally owned fully automatic weapons here instead of “legally owned firearms”? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/498 "2016-07-04T17:45:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, luckily for me, I said nothing about effects on crime. WHEW! You realize that murder is a crime, right? Or is reducing the number of firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens as you mention in your original post, the desired effect? I don’t think that anyone disagrees that banning a weapons reduces the prevalence of its ownership among law abiding citizens. > [@](#): > > On this we agree. the gun rights side is quick to agree with the facts that they like and the gun control side is quick to agree with the facts that they like. The gun rights side tends to have the facts on their side MUCH more frequently. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/499 "2016-07-04T17:46:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do you mean legally owned fully automatic weapons here instead of “legally owned firearms”? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/500 "2016-07-05T19:54:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You realize that murder is a crime, right? So? I wasn’t talking about crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=26)