# On an assault weapon ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469 "2016-06-15T22:04:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/501 "2016-07-05T20:33:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So? I wasn’t talking about crime. :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: OK fine: "Banning one subset of guns while leaving others freely available is not going to have much effect on [delete]crime[/delete] the murder rate. How much [delete]crime[/delete] murder do you think was prevented by banning automatic weapons? Or were you in fact arguing that banning a weapon reduces its ownership among law abiding citizens? Because no one has been arguing against the proposition. Is the ultimate goal just to reduce the civilian ownership of guns, by whatever means necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/502 "2016-07-06T12:21:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: > > OK fine: > > "Banning one subset of guns while leaving others freely available is not going to have much effect on [delete]crime[/delete] the murder rate. How much [delete]crime[/delete] murder do you think was prevented by banning automatic weapons? Well, I wasn’t talking about \*\*\*the murder rate \*\*\* either. Maybe read what I wrote again. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/503 "2016-07-06T14:12:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, I wasn’t talking about \*\*\*the murder rate \*\*\* either. Maybe read what I wrote again. Did you read the rest of my post? If I’m missing something, why are you being so coy about it? 6 posts between us so that you don’t have to clarify what the fuck you were trying to say. :smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/504 "2016-07-06T14:32:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Did you read the rest of my post? If I’m missing something, why are you being so coy about it? 6 posts between us so that you don’t have to clarify what the fuck you were trying to say. :smack::smack: Well, I was hoping I wouldn’t have to repeat a post I already made, but no matter. I’m not being coy, I can fully explain any position on may take on some topic without resorting to babyish tricks like yelling “2nd Amendment!” or “Liberal!” or “Racist!” Here is what I posted: \*\*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \*\* Note that I made no mention of crimes being committed, murders or anything else you may conjure up out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/505 "2016-07-06T14:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=manson1972] I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. [/QUOTE] [I actually addressed this earlier, but not sure if you ever replied. At any rate, what of it? You are talking about a very small percentage of all guns, even at that time when basically they were available without restriction. And you are talking about guns that don’t really have that much utility for lawful citizens to use to defend themselves verse the higher cost, again, even at the time they were widely available. So, you are talking about something with marginal utility and marginal numbers that had a marginal effect on overall freedom and impacted a very marginal number of citizens, especially considering that a lot of the guns were grandfathered in…which meant it only affected people who might have wanted to buy a new automatic weapons after the statutes went into effect (i.e. it didn’t even take most of the existing guns off the streets). Is that your big point?? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/506 "2016-07-06T14:47:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is that your big point?? LOL, I never claimed it was a big point. So, do you agree with my claim or do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/507 "2016-07-06T14:51:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > LOL, I never claimed it was a big point. So, do you agree with my claim or do you disagree? Since there seems to be some misunderstanding as to what you are claiming, perhaps you could take the time to clarify whatever it is that you are claiming? just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/508 "2016-07-06T14:56:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Since there seems to be some misunderstanding as to what you are claiming, perhaps you could take the time to clarify whatever it is that you are claiming? just sayin’ Deliberate misunderstanding it seems to me. But whatever, my claim is in posts 489 and 504, you can tell because it starts off with “I claim…” But sure, I’ll post it again: \*\*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/509 "2016-07-06T15:01:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > \*\*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \*\* If a state outright banned full-auto firearms, doesn’t that mean, by definition, only criminals have access to them? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/510 "2016-07-06T15:20:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If a state outright banned full-auto firearms, doesn’t that mean, by definition, only criminals have access to them? Maybe. Are there criminals running around in those states with outright bans with fully automatic weapons? Do the bans cover ALL fully automatic weapons from any time, for any citizen, for any reason? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/511 "2016-07-06T15:25:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Deliberate misunderstanding it seems to me. But whatever, my claim is in posts 489 and 504, you can tell because it starts off with “I claim…” > > But sure, I’ll post it again: > > \*\*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \*\* Actually, I think this post is what was being discussed: > [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems that heavy restriction and outright banning in some states has led to a significant drop in the amount of automatic weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens. Further, it doesn’t seem like only criminals have automatic weapons in the states that have banned it. That seems to fly in the face of “restricting and/or banning guns has no effect” This is something that can be argued, but you worded this in a way that would allow you to dodge any critique. You then rephrased to this: > [@Slash1972](#): > > I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. That’s fine - though entirely pointless. I can do it to: \*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in the US in 1989 of RU486 did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \* The reason your claim is pointless is because you haven’t established the background or connection of the cause and effect of the two claims you are making - that being the prevalence of defense with full auto weapons prior to the regulation and banning, and the prevalence of criminal possession vs lawful possession of full auto weapons prior to the regulation and banning. Or, this: > [@XT](#): > > Doesn’t seem to fly in the face of ‘restricting and/or banning guns has no effect’ to me. If you are talking about something that was a very low percentage of the market even when it was unrestricted, and has since made it a very high premium wrt cost, it’s not a mystery why it has little effect on crime. It would be like restricting a super premium scotch, further driving up the price, then pointing at this vertical product and saying that, due to the restrictions this scotch doesn’t have an impact on alcoholism or deaths or injuries due to its use, then implying that, well, it worked here, so if we ban, say, all beer it would work just as well and have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/512 "2016-07-06T16:37:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Actually, I think this post is what was being discussed Great, so do you agree with the claim or not? Yes or No? Good news! I have a bet on how you will answer, so good luck to me! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/513 "2016-07-06T16:48:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Great, so do you agree with the claim or not? Yes or No? Good news! I have a bet on how you will answer, so good luck to me! This claim? > [@Slash1972](#): > > I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. I think this claim is fine and I agree though as I said, it’s entirely pointless. Other pointless things would be if you were to claim that the gravitational pull of Haley’s Comet as it gets closer to Earth does not degrade the ability for lawful citizens to defend themselves. Did you win the bet? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/514 "2016-07-06T16:57:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > LOL, I never claimed it was a big point. So, do you agree with my claim or do you disagree? In the same way that banning kiddie porn doesn’t have a massive infringement on the 1st, sure…the banning of a very marginal group of weapons that had a very marginal effect on crime and was used by a very small group of people and made up a very small percentage of guns has a very marginal effect and infringement on the 2nd. I guess if that’s your claim and you feel this is worth discussing and pointing out then, sure, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/515 "2016-07-06T17:18:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think this claim is fine and I agree > Did you win the bet? No, I did not ☹ However, thank you for giving a straight answer 🙂 so it was really win/win for me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/516 "2016-07-06T17:25:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > In the same way that banning kiddie porn doesn’t have a massive infringement on the 1st, sure…has a very marginal effect and infringement on the 2nd. I guess if that’s your claim and you feel this is worth discussing and pointing out then, sure, I agree. I felt it was worth it, which is all I really need. In any event, if > [@](#): > > the banning of a very marginal group of weapons that had a very marginal effect on crime and was used by a very small group of people and made up a very small percentage of guns 1. why was the ban even enacted then? Same hysteria about guns that we have today? If the ban did nothing for anyone, what was the point? 2. why aren’t criminals flooding the streets with fully automatic weapons, since they are so hard for law-abiding citizens to get? Why aren’t mass shooters using fully automatic weapons to mow down as many people as they can? Is the answer “because they are too hard to get”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/517 "2016-07-06T17:44:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Deliberate misunderstanding it seems to me. But whatever, my claim is in posts 489 and 504, you can tell because it starts off with “I claim…” > > But sure, I’ll post it again: > > \*\*I claim that the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of fully automatic weapons did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to defend themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to fully automatic weapons. \*\* So? They were never very popular in the first place. Quite uncommon. What is your point? This is like saying “the heavy regulation in all states and outright banning in some states of dragsters did not degrade the ability for a lawful citizen to transport themselves, nor did it result in only criminals having access to dragster.” Meanwhile, what they want to do is ban all fuel powered cars- leaving us only all electric vehicles. \*“You can still transport yourself! Those 400Hp muscle cars are designed for ONE THING- racing! The right to transport yourself only applies to regulated freight carriers. Cars kill 35000 people a year!” \* ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/518 "2016-07-06T17:53:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So? They were never very popular in the first place. Quite uncommon. Then why were they banned? I bet [the guys who died here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Valentine%27s_Day_Massacre#Murder_weapons) took great comfort in the fact that they weren’t very popular or common 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/519 "2016-07-06T18:00:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Then why were they banned? Is this a trick question? They weren’t banned, just heavily restricted. Why do you think they were banned? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/520 "2016-07-06T18:07:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Is this a trick question? They weren’t banned, just heavily restricted. Why do you think they were banned? I read his question as “why were post-1986 machine guns banned?” and my answer was going to be “I have no @#$%ing idea, you’d have to ask the retards that passed the ban. It doesn’t appear to be related to any notable incident involving machine guns or as a response to some (then current) public outcry over the issue.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=27)