# On an assault weapon ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469 "2016-06-15T22:04:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/121 "2016-06-17T16:03:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Ahem - _People knew this monster. They knew he was planning to commit mass murder. Co-workers, family members, and the FBI were aware that there was something terribly wrong with this guy. Why was this monster not medicated or under observation BEFORE he became the mass murderer he wanted to be?_ > > “Retrospectively?” Prior to this jihadi mass murder, people participated in this monster’s preparations for a mass murder spree. Co-workers had informed authorities that this monster was planning a jihadi attack. > > **I wonder who in Obama’s FBI had closed the case file on this Muslim’s strange behaviors? And why they chose to close it?** So you think Obama ordered the case closed? Why would he do that? What is it about this case(out of thousands) that would make Obama take a personal interest in it? Do you have a cite that he actually told his co-workers he was planning an attack? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/122 "2016-06-17T16:06:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That ciggy advert comes with a big warning about the health risks. That car advert comes with the standard disclaimer that it is performed on a closed set with professional drivers(usually with a “Do not drive like these maniacs at home!” type of disclaimer also added). What warning do you want on these advertisements? “if you are a shitty shot, this gun will not make you any less shitty” What? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/123 "2016-06-17T16:21:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No… I’m speaking of the speed at which the gun itself cycles. Sure, the human finger is a limitation… Except that there are little motorized spinners (illegal) that you can put into the trigger guard to push the trigger much faster than a human can. They turn a semi-automatic weapon into something indistinguishable from a fully-automatic weapon. These are limited by the intrinsic cycle rate of the gun itself. > > This kind of modification is why I am leery of guns with very fast cycle rates. A revolver has a very fast recycle rate as well. Most people don’t have the speed to do it but really fast guys fire multiple shots so fast that I sounds like only a single shot has been fired. Just to reiterate a previous point, machine guns are horribly inefficient killing devices. You burn through your entire magazine in under 2 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/124 "2016-06-17T16:27:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Some are intrinsically much faster than others, specifically the ones designed to be modifiable to fully-automatic. (ETA: or, if you want to be pedantic, the ones that are modified versions of guns that were originally fully-automatic, but which have downgraded semi-automatic versions.) I thought we addressed this myth earlier but just to reiterate. You CANNOT easily modify a semiautomatic gun into an automatic gun. Most semiautomatic guns have something called a sear. its the thing that catches the hammer after it has fired a round. If you file down the sear, what happens is that it will not catch and you will empty out your magazine every time you pull the trigger. Noone does this on purpose. This mechanism is common to almost every semi-automatic firearm I am aware of. There is no functional difference between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a semiautomatic magazine fed hunting rifle. I think that someone has convinced you that AR-15s are something more than rifles with modern accessories. > [@](#): > > Yes, I acknowledged that in my first post: in WWI, bolt-action rifles did considerable slaughter. If you don’t like semi-automatic rifles, wait until we get light sabers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/125 "2016-06-17T16:33:49Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > [Dram shop laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dram_shop), obviously. The bar has to have served alcohol to someone who was visibly intoxicated. If your liability for guns is based on handing your gun to someone who is visibly in a murderous rage, then I think we already have laws that attach liability in those cases. The proposal as I understand it is that you own a gun and someone steals the gun and kills someone with it. You are responsible for that death. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/126 "2016-06-17T16:35:10Z")
[semi-hijack continued] > [@doorhinge](#): > > Ahem - _People knew this monster. They knew he was planning to commit mass murder. Co-workers, family members, and the FBI were aware that there was something terribly wrong with this guy. Why was this monster not medicated or under observation BEFORE he became the mass murderer he wanted to be?_ There was a response already, that you ignored: > [@Voyager](#): > > And there are hundreds or thousands of people the FBI investigates who never kill anyone. Should we medicate or observe all of them? How about all the militia men out West who deny the authority of the government and actual threaten people. Imagine the joy of the Muslim haters if we threw all them in jail. Are you for that? Yeah, we going to round up and medicate GamerGate trolls? Or general bigoted/hatemongering trolls? MRAs? “Oath Keepers”? Animal Liberation Front supporters? People did not KNOW this was what this dirtbag was going to do. They had reason to _believe there was something wrong up with him_, BUT could not come up with sufficient hard proof that he needed to be placed preventively in the loony bin - he was as far as they could tell one more bigoted asshat with a short temper and a chip on the shoulder about others not embracing The Truth, like millions of others who go around trolling the world and spewing hatefulness. In America we don’t pump someone full of tranqs just for being a hateful ass; and we don’t have the means to keep a 24/7 watch on every one of them. We may beef up resources to do more of the latter, but God keep us from ever doing the former. [/semi-hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/127 "2016-06-17T20:21:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **Trinopus** , can you give a specific example of a semi-automatic rifle with an acceptably low “cycle rate?” My old .22 cycled more slowly than an AR15. (It had a tube-magazine.) I don’t know the brand name. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/128 "2016-06-17T20:27:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Trinopus, full-auto weapons are virtually never used in crimes. The last big incident I can recall is the North Hollywood shootout in the '90’s. And those guys managed to kill no one but themselves. I don’t understand your concern with them. It seems that you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist (at least not in any meaningful way). I want to keep fully-automatic weapons from becoming a problem. If various mass shooters had had fully-automatic weapons, I think they would have killed more people. A crowded nightclub would be a perfect (ick!) situation for fully-automatic fire. This was what the gangsters liked to use in the bad old days – Tommy guns spraying rounds in rapid fire. I don’t want to see a return to that kind of shooting. (Also, it’s so moderate a gun-control position, it has a chance of obtaining legislative success.) (I didn’t remember the North Hollywood shooters having fully automatic weapons; I thought they were a special case because they had armor-piercing rounds and were cutting right through police officers’ protective vests.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/129 "2016-06-17T20:31:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I thought we addressed this myth earlier but just to reiterate. You CANNOT easily modify a semiautomatic gun into an automatic gun. . . . Define “easily.” Because, yes, someone with gunsmithing tools can modify some models of guns into fully-automatic weapons. It might involve fabricating parts. I know second-hand (my brother in law) of a case where an automatic pistol spontaneously went fully-automatic (part of the sear broke) and he emptied the whole clip in one burst. Climbed like hell: the final shots went upward and backward. Scared the hell out of him…and the range safety officer. It would be trivial to re-create this accident deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/130 "2016-06-17T20:39:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Define “easily.” Because, yes, someone with gunsmithing tools can modify some models of guns into fully-automatic weapons. It might involve fabricating parts. > > I know second-hand (my brother in law) of a case where an automatic pistol spontaneously went fully-automatic (part of the sear broke) and he emptied the whole clip in one burst. Climbed like hell: the final shots went upward and backward. Scared the hell out of him…and the range safety officer. > > It would be trivial to re-create this accident deliberately. But most semi-automatic guns today are designed to make such modifications very difficult (not impossible). And generally, they don’t work very well (after spending a ton of money to make them happen), causing jams and other serious issues. Really, if one wants an automatic weapon the easier solution is to go out and get one illegally. If you can get heroin or cocaine, meth or any number of other illegal substances or whatever, you can certainly get an automatic weapon (hell, you can get one in Europe, as those assholes in France proved) if that’s what you REALLY want. It would be a lot easier than (illegally) modifying a semi-automatic one to do something it’s not designed or optimized to do. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/131 "2016-06-17T20:51:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I want to keep fully-automatic weapons from becoming a problem. > > (I didn’t remember the North Hollywood shooters having fully automatic weapons; I thought they were a special case because they had armor-piercing rounds and were cutting right through police officers’ protective vests.) I don’t think anyone, even the NRA, is advocating for full auto weapons. [North Hollywood shootout.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) > [@](#): > > Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally-modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s (an AK-47 variant), a Bushmaster XM15 Dissipator, and a HK-91 rifle with high capacity drum magazines as well as a Beretta 92FS pistol. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/132 "2016-06-17T21:03:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > My old .22 cycled more slowly than an AR15. (It had a tube-magazine.) I don’t know the brand name. [Was this it?](http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfloading/60.asp) Because mine can unload 14 rounds just as fast any AR will. It has a tiny bolt and an efficient loading system through that tube. They do take forever to reload. Maybe yours was dirty? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/133 "2016-06-17T21:07:18Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > [Was this it?](http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfloading/60.asp) Because mine can unload 14 rounds just as fast any AR will. It has a tiny bolt and an efficient loading system through that tube. They do take forever to reload. > > Maybe yours was dirty? I had an old browning .22 rifle that was very similar (I think it was made in 1960…I got it when I was 10). It could fire as fast as an AR as well. As you say, it was slow to load since it was tube fed, but once loaded the rate of fire was exactly the same. Essentially as fast as you could squeeze the trigger. Any semi-auto that isn’t that fast has a problem. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/134 "2016-06-17T22:46:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I had an old browning .22 rifle that was very similar (I think it was made in 1960…I got it when I was 10). It could fire as fast as an AR as well. As you say, it was slow to load since it was tube fed, but once loaded the rate of fire was exactly the same. Essentially as fast as you could squeeze the trigger. Any semi-auto that isn’t that fast has a problem. I have fired hundreds of different semi-auto rifles, pistols, and shotguns in my life, and never detected any discernible difference in the cyclic rate. They’re all ready to fire again before I am. Even when doing double taps. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/135 "2016-06-18T00:50:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Shooting just for fun. > > But Ok, lets ban the magazines. Semi-automatic rifles that can only hold six bullets at a time? Yeah, I could live with that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/136 "2016-06-18T00:53:29Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I have fired hundreds of different semi-auto rifles, pistols, and shotguns in my life, and never detected any discernible difference in the cyclic rate. They’re all ready to fire again before I am. Even when doing double taps. The WWII German Schmeisser was famous for having so rapid a rate of fire, it sounded like a zipper. They really aren’t all equal. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/137 "2016-06-18T02:03:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The WWII German Schmeisser was famous for having so rapid a rate of fire, it sounded like a zipper. > > They really aren’t all equal. Ah…I think you are confused about something. The MP-40 IS an automatic sub-machine gun, not a semi-auto. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/138 "2016-06-18T02:09:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ah…I think you are confused about something. The MP-40 IS an automatic sub-machine gun, not a semi-auto. Yes, but what I’m talking about is “cycle rate,” and the example was only to establish that they aren’t all equal. If a semi-automatic rifle existed (I suspect one does not, but if one existed) with that kind of super-fast cycle rate, I would want it banned, on that account. That’s my argument here: I believe there are specific functional characteristics of guns that should make them forbidden. If a semi-automatic version of the Schmeisser existed…I wouldn’t want it to be sold in the U.S. (I gave the other example of handguns so very small they can be put in a shirt pocket.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/139 "2016-06-18T02:21:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yes, but what I’m talking about is “cycle rate,” and the example was only to establish that they aren’t all equal. > > If a semi-automatic rifle existed (I suspect one does not, but if one existed) with that kind of super-fast cycle rate, I would want it banned, on that account. That’s my argument here: I believe there are specific functional characteristics of guns that should make them forbidden. > > If a semi-automatic version of the Schmeisser existed…I wouldn’t want it to be sold in the U.S. > > (I gave the other example of handguns so very small they can be put in a shirt pocket.) But your argument makes no sense. If there WAS a semi-automatic version of the Schmeisser it wouldn’t have an open bolt design or be automatic, so it wouldn’t be any faster than any other semi-automatic weapon. It would be exactly the same rate of fire as my old Browning .22. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469/140 "2016-06-18T03:01:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I don’t think anyone, even the NRA, is advocating for full auto weapons. I am! Specifically, I think the Hughes amendment to the 1986 FOPA ought to be repealed. > [@Trinopus](#): > > I want to keep fully-automatic weapons from becoming a problem. If various mass shooters had had fully-automatic weapons, I think they would have killed more people. A crowded nightclub would be a perfect (ick!) situation for fully-automatic fire. I’ve fired both semi-automatic and fully automatic rifles. I honestly don’t think it would make much difference. The faster mag dump is offset by the lack of controlled fire. A semi-automatic rifle is quite devastating enough against a mass of defenseless victims. > [@Trinopus](#): > > This was what the gangsters liked to use in the bad old days – Tommy guns spraying rounds in rapid fire. I don’t want to see a return to that kind of shooting. This is largely Hollywood fiction, not history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-an-assault-weapon-ban/757469.md?page=8)