# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023 "2015-05-28T10:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/21 "2015-05-28T13:34:18Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > That is why I said “BECAUSE she is a woman.” > > There are many reasons why a woman would start talking to a woman first, such as age, apparent authority, charisma or any other reason, but I’m mentioning the reason specifically being just the femininity of the person in the room. While we cannot inspect or condemn intentions, I’m talking about a miniature hypothetical situation to emphasize the behavior I’m attacking (gender bias), and which is enlarged and much more aggressive in different situations. There’s no way to know why another person chooses to talk to a third person unless they tell you (and even then they could be lying). And in my experience, the type of gender bias you describe is much, much more common in society going the other way (men preferring to hire other men, women being treated unfairly in a professional setting, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/22 "2015-05-28T13:38:29Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > Again: If a woman walks into a meeting room to discuss cellphone batteries, and in the room are two people; a woman and a man that she hasn’t met before, and she ends up discussing the matter with the woman BECAUSE she is a woman, then that is straight-up sexism and gender bias served cold. This just floors me because this is exactly what men do. If I ever take my car to the shop with my boyfriend, they address him. I know my car. He doesn’t know anything about it. If I go to a meeting of all men, chances are they will talk to each other rather than me. If I try to join a golf club, same thing. Men have been doing this for generations. It’s no surprise that when a woman enters a male-dominated profession and sees another woman there, they might want to talk to them. That being said, there isn’t nearly as much solidarity among women as you’d think. And not nearly as much as there should be! ---
**Author:** ![MorphinePoet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morphinepoet/32/7315_2.png) [@MorphinePoet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MorphinePoet)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/23 "2015-05-28T13:40:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Let’s grant that this would be sexism. > > On that understanding, sexism can happen both ways. Sure. > > Now, there is one relatively more powerful group which, on the whole, benefits widely and systematically from the exercise of sexism. > > There’s another relatively less powerful group which, on the whole, manages to not even keep up with the other group despite the exercise of sexism. > > Two groups, both using the same tool (on your assumptions, which I’m granting), one from a position of power, and to great systematic benefit to themselves, and the other from a position of the lack of power, and not to any great systematic benefit to themselves. > > And you’re pointing at the less powerful group and nagging at them to stoppit. > > Why would you do that, I wonder? I’m condemning such behavior regardless of which group instigates it; I’ve clearly stated that. What I’m saying is that the popular rhetoric of the less powerful group (regardless of their status of power) is aggressive and misdirected. I am definitely condemning male dominance, definitely condemning the pay gap, definitely condemning the misogynistic civil law in developing countries, definitely condemning the objectification of women, definitely condemning any law, practice or system that doesn’t take into consideration women’s anatomy (pregnancy, maternity, etc), definitely against any harm that can be inflicted upon any woman anywhere and I am for more comprehensive laws that punish any violence against women. But I am also against what I’ve repeatedly stated in my previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/24 "2015-05-28T13:42:00Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > But I am also against what I’ve repeatedly stated in my previous posts. But who is for it? Who are you arguing against? ---
**Author:** ![MorphinePoet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morphinepoet/32/7315_2.png) [@MorphinePoet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MorphinePoet)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/25 "2015-05-28T13:43:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But who is for it? Who are you arguing against? I don’t know. The world? Mainstream media? The next militant feminist I encounter? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/26 "2015-05-28T13:46:33Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > I don’t know. The world? Mainstream media? The next militant feminist I encounter? Not in the world I live in (except for a few nuts who constitute a tiny, tiny minority of actual feminists). You asserting “X happens commonly” doesn’t actually mean that X happens commonly. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/27 "2015-05-28T14:34:42Z")
Yes. Saying “bla bla bla women” is by definition sexist. I think there are two additional steps, though - what’s the reason for it, and what’s wrong with that reason? I think it’s likely that the host of the international businesswoman forum would say, in explanation of the sexism, that s/he is proud to be the host of the first etc. etc. because there had never previously been one because of international discrimination against women. That the reason for the pride isn’t exclusionary; it’s actually a celebration of inclusion that was a long time coming. I think that’s a pretty good reason. I think objecting to it is exclusionary. I’m really suspicious of people who insist on formal, technical equality when it would have the effect of being exclusionary, because the status quo is exclusionary. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/28 "2015-05-28T14:48:09Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > I can see that most comments are about me, what I fear and what I am, instead of the topic. You opened the topic yourself, with your defensive comments, in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/29 "2015-05-28T14:57:45Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > The next militant feminist I encounter? Under your bed? Possibly[in your closet](http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341)?\* When there can be a woman-only equivalent of [this blog](http://allmalepanels.tumblr.com/), then _maybe_ you’ll be on an approach vector to a point. Maybe. As it stands, pushback against existing oppression isn’t oppression: listen to this tiny violin, it plays for all the poor oppressed men, being excluded by the mean women. - I know I posted it before, but it’s sooo _apropos_… ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/30 "2015-05-28T15:10:43Z")
Feminism is sexist like the NAACP is racist. Why aren’t they all just secular humanists? Because they want to focus on their particular niche, as opposed to a diffuse grab bag. [As for just ignoring differences:](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/3-myths-plus-a-few-best-practices-for-achieving-diversity/) > [@](#): > > Several years ago my colleagues and I conducted a study in a health care organization consisting of scientists, doctors, nurses and other health care workers. We asked people whether they thought racial and ethnic differences should be actively ignored or positively acknowledged as part of the organization’s efforts to promote diversity. We then examined how employees of color felt about their work and the organization. In departments in which white employees believed that differences should be ignored, we found that the sense of engagement felt by nonwhite workers was lower than in departments in which white workers publicly espoused support for diversity—regardless of how many persons of color actually worked in the department. Moreover, in the “color-blind” departments, individuals from underrepresented groups perceived more bias. In the acknowledging departments, they perceived less. > > … > > Whereas both groups completed their tests more quickly when pairing “white” and “pleasant” words, study participants who had been exposed to the multicultural approach showed less of a difference than those who had been given the color-blind material. Richeson, who is now at Northwestern University, thus concluded that color-blind policies might backfire, generating more racial tension by stoking rather than lessening implicit bias. More recent studies have found that the prescription to ignore racial differences tends to increase prejudicial behavior in both verbal and nonverbal ways by white students and, perhaps because of this, to cognitively exhaust students of color. YMMV. On the other hand, there’s a lot of stuff to criticize the modern movement over. Like the “ban bossy” campaign. It’s not a good look if you sound like a Republican caricature, or undercut your own talking points, e.g. women are just as strong as leaders as men vs. don’t call us names or we’ll lose all confidence and give up. And isn’t telling everyone not to use the word bossy sorta…bossy? Or the whole pay gap thing, which liberals have been spinning their wheels over for as long as I’ve been politically aware. I can’t tell if it’s just a useful rallying cry for tribal identification or if they really want to do something about it, like making companies pay under qualified/absent women more money than their male counterparts. If it were literally true that comparable women employees were making 75 cents on the dollar companies could save a lot of money by just hiring a bunch of women. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/31 "2015-05-28T15:21:31Z")
Interesting study, **marshmallow**. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/32 "2015-05-28T16:00:39Z")
I’m inclined to think the conclusion that people who want to passive aggressively insist on “color blindness” or who are otherwise uncomfortable discussing the issue actually show more bias than those who do is approaching “water is wet” levels of obviousness. That was one of Colbert’s longer running interview gags, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/33 "2015-05-28T16:25:44Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m really suspicious of people who insist on formal, technical equality when it would have the effect of being exclusionary, because the status quo is exclusionary. This bears rereading. **Morphine Poet** , if you had a history of objecting to the thousand and one anti-woman sexist slights that happen every hour in American business culture, maybe this thread wouldn’t ring so false. But when you look at gender inequality, and the only thread you start on this subject is to object to a businesswoman’s forum, it’s like someone claiming the Mississippi flows north because they found themselves in an eddy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/34 "2015-05-28T16:26:51Z")
Until the sexes are equal in more ways than they are now, its a good thing that feminism and other -isms promote their particular group as intrinsically positive. Too often are white males the default in anything. When that changes, feminism can stop promoting itself. Until then, promote on! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/35 "2015-05-28T18:22:43Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K9fF8yptn8E/hqdefault.jpg "Grateful Dead - Man Smart Woman Smarter") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9fF8yptn8E) ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/36 "2015-05-28T18:55:35Z")
Ironically I just went to an awards luncheon in which they were dishing out awards to women in business. Talk about feeling great! In an environment where it seems like everyone is younger, better-looking, and more successful than you. (Then I went to Kohl’s and reality reasserted itself). But I was thinking about this thread while I was there. They gave the award to six white women and one black woman. And as the black woman stood up to give her speech I looked around the room and saw predominantly white faces. A handful of blacks. A handful of Asians. You bet your bippie amongst the women I identified most with the black woman and was happy to see her up there, in this freakin sea of white people. It isn’t like that in this community; at a quick glance we are: 63% white 28% black 3% Asians So in a group of 7 people, it should be more like 2 people that are nonwhite. Still, I will take one any day. We can’t help it, as humans. I am now almost 40. I will never be great in my field. I will never win a Women in Business award. But that is OK by me - that’s due to environment, heredity, and choices I made. It doesn’t change the fact one bit that I am still happy to see women of color making strides and winning awards. This black woman made a point of mentioning she was born under Jim Crow laws. I think lots of people forget just how recent it was that black people were not considered human and other nonwhites were expected to sit down and listen to their betters. Do you know when E. Indians were allowed to be citizens? 1946! In 1923 the very right to be citizens was taken away from us. That wasn’t long ago at all! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/37 "2015-05-28T18:57:11Z")
> [@MorphinePoet](#): > > It’s acceptable for a woman nowadays to say publicly that men are stupid. But for a man of any designation or post to say the same thing about women would be the end of their career/public life. Do you have example of this happening and it’s viewed as acceptable? Outside of Sitcoms? I may be new to the internet, but I’m flabbergasted by the number of people concerned about women and minorities being so cruel to the white guys. I sure don’t feel oppressed by feminism, or any organization trying to advance the progress of any minority group. I don’t mind the [Hispanic Bar Association](http://www.hnba.com/), the [National Medical Association](http://www.nmanet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=2), or any other such group. White guys will be okay. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/38 "2015-05-28T19:06:31Z")
I think the OP isn’t seeing how biased normal reality is. It’s true that women now have some forms of recognition than men don’t get. Does that mean there’s a bias against men? Of course not. The reality is there’s always been an overwhelming bias in favor of men. What’s happening now is we’re seeing some attempts to reverse that bias and establish gender equality. If you only focus on the leaps forward that women have recently made, you’re ignoring the huge head start that men have. Women have not caught up with men yet. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/39 "2015-05-28T19:17:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you only focus on the leaps forward that women have recently made, you’re ignoring the huge head start that men have. Oh piffle. What’s 40,000 years compared to “exclusionary and cult-like” modern feminism? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023/40 "2015-05-28T19:33:42Z")
Do Saudi police still lop the heads off of women caught driving a car? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/721023.md?page=3)