# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/201 "2015-11-13T18:17:35Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > Why, whatever strawman you choose, clearly. Who’s your audience here? Are you hoping they won’t look into the context (not meaty here, meaty elsewhere, which is not _me_ changing, is it?) and just run with your faintly distasteful attempt to insert Jews into this discussion in the hope you can deliver a fatal _ad hominem_? With luck, they’ll maybe also learn that sexism is like a holocaust… On the contrary, I dearly hope everyone is reading the context of this conversation in full. I don’t want anyone to miss a single drop of your wit and insight. Also, I see you still haven’t figured out what an ad hominem is. Well, words are tricky. I’m sure you’ll figure it out soon enough. > [@](#): > > All notions are invented, MMMiller, do keep up. If ‘ethnically jewish’ (having been raised in a jewish tradition but not jewish by religion) is a thing, I _am_ an ethnic feminist - who better placed than I to ‘invent’ the notion? I ‘self-identify’ - or is that option only open to your team? Would you report yourself, while we’re here, for the personal insult - save me the effort, there’s a good mod. That’s not what “ethnically Jewish” means. “Ethnically Jewish” means you had at least one parent who was Jewish. Just like “ethnically black” means you had at least one parent who was black. Orphans raised in gentile homes with no knowledge of their heritage, who discover that their birth parents were Jewish, are ethnically Jewish. So, that notion of “ethnic feminist” is, not to put too fine a point on it, deeply stupid, because feminism, unlike black, white, hispanic, and, yes, Judaism, is not an ethnicity. I am curious about the “self-identity” thing, because self-identity is not really a huge part of feminist theory, except for those parts that overlap with queer theory, where self-identity is a huge issue. So, was that a backhanded swipe at me for being queer? Or just another example of you getting confused about what you’re saying? > [@](#): > > I believe the acceptable response to this is ‘Rubbish. Rubbish. Utter rubbish’. There we are, that’s that refuted. Well, about as well refuted as you’ve ever refuted anything on this subject, at least. > [@](#): > > But wait, let’s also note that you’re wrong, in one of two ways I can’t mention. We were talking of the mathematics of ‘equality’ - how does one value each element, in order to reach ‘equality’? It is you, with feminism, who undervalues women (as well infantalising them). The ‘battles’ (such language…) that ‘feminism’ has won (a bold claim for social, political, economic and technological advancement) have brought equality…for women. The inequality of men’s treatment before the law vastly outweighs the trivial bigotry of fevered outrage directed at ‘manspreading’. This is such a fantastic example of you just not understanding how to put together two sentences to form a coherent argument. You start with, “Feminism ha[s] brought equality… for women,” implying that feminists only want equality for women, and don’t care about inequality towards men. But you don’t seem to understand that “equal” needs a comparison. “Equality only for women” is an intellectually vacant concept, because they need someone to be _equal with_. And I think we can take your frantic back peddle that you meant “equal” ironically as read. It’s not like you’d convince anyone with it, anyway. > [@](#): > > On the claim that ‘feminism’ has won battles, I’m reminded of a local election a few years ago. I live conveniently close to the historic and infamous Greenham Common, once home to very many women who were at once vehemently opposed to men yet simultaneously supported by them in their campaign against nuclear weapons. Then the world changed around them (_not_ as a result of menstrual protests and chanting). But one of the sisters stood for election, and made the claim that she had ‘overseen’ the removal of cruise missiles. As in, she was over there and she seen 'em… Cool story, bro. > [@](#): > > You know that egalitarians also work towards ‘equality’ (though we may not agree on its form, it seems)? Why no credit for us? Oh yes, we’ve established feminism is not just a religion, it’s the one true religion. I don’t know that egalitarians work towards equality, actually, as the only people I know who strongly identify as egalitarians are yourself and **Linus**. And I very much doubt either of you have ever done anything significant to foster equality. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/202 "2015-11-13T18:20:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I thought it was well known that “ethnically Jewish” was a real thing. My mother’s DNA is 100% Jewish, therefore I am ethnically Jewish, by the Jewish tradition that anyone whose mother is Jewish is a Jew. It doesn’t matter that I’m an atheist, I am also ethnically Jewish. There, there **iiandyiiii** … By me, you’re a Jew. By your father, you’re a Jew. By your mother, you’re a Jew. But by **Jack** … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/203 "2015-11-13T18:26:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Not with any particular strength of conviction that they must always remain separate. > > It’s more a question of accomodating those who might object to unisex bathroom stalls for reasons of modesty or safety. If the majority of society generally demands that it’s an antiquated practice, I’m happy to let it fade away as well. Probably the same thing they said about race-segregated water fountains and bathrooms and everything else in the South 50 years ago! (Just being Devil’s advocate because it’s interesting to talk about.) > [@](#): > > Added: In all fairness, does main stream feminism make these demands? Not to my knowledge so probably not an issue we need to worry about in any practical terms. But it would still be an issue if we think feminists SHOULD make these demands in order to live up to their principles. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/204 "2015-11-13T18:34:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If women are not inherently better parents than men, why do women get custody of children 85% of the time? Do you think men are inherently better engineers than women? Why do you think 85% of engineers are men? > [@](#): > > I merely stated that women are attracted to masculine men. Again, if you think otherwise, you’re free to disagree. Which women and what do you mean by masculine? Is willingness to be an equal parent “masculine” or not? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/205 "2015-11-13T18:47:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Probably the same thing they said about race-segregated water fountains and bathrooms and everything else in the South 50 years ago! > > (Just being Devil’s advocate because it’s interesting to talk about.) Look, if women want to use the men’s bathrooms because they consider it segregation, then by all means let them. I think they’ll end up regreting it almost immediately. :eek: > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But it would still be an issue if we think feminists SHOULD make these demands in order to live up to their principles. That’s a lot like me, an atheist, telling a devout Christian that he’s doing it all wrong. It’s not really as clever as it first seems. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/206 "2015-11-13T19:17:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Look, if women want to use the men’s bathrooms because they consider it segregation, then by all means let them. I think they’ll end up regreting it almost immediately. :eek: I go into the men’s bathroom when the line for the women’s bathroom is too long, or when there are far fewer women’s bathrooms than men’s (happened at my grad school). There is not really a big difference in the level of cleanliness between the two. There is never any blood in the men’s rooms that I have been in, for example. I think there is really no reason anyone should have to travel further or wait longer to go to the bathroom, so unisex is the most equal solution. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/207 "2015-11-13T19:28:18Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > I go into the men’s bathroom when the line for the women’s bathroom is too long, or when there are far fewer women’s bathrooms than men’s (happened at my grad school). There is not really a big difference in the level of cleanliness between the two. There is never any blood in the men’s rooms that I have been in, for example. > > I think there is really no reason anyone should have to travel further or wait longer to go to the bathroom, so unisex is the most equal solution. So you’d have no problem with men coming into the women’s room at any time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/208 "2015-11-13T19:29:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Look, if women want to use the men’s bathrooms because they consider it segregation, then by all means let them. I think they’ll end up regreting it almost immediately. :eek: But we men will be using the women’s because it’s better. Until we ruin that too. > [@](#): > > That’s a lot like me, an atheist, telling a devout Christian that he’s doing it all wrong. It’s not really as clever as it first seems. It’s legitimate to call out someone for hypocrisy though. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/209 "2015-11-13T19:41:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s legitimate to call out someone for hypocrisy though. Sure, but then you have to learn to be okay with having no-one to talk to at parties. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/210 "2015-11-13T19:53:23Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > I think there is really no reason anyone should have to travel further or wait longer to go to the bathroom, so unisex is the most equal solution. It’s clearly not in the best interest of men, because women in the men’s bathrooms would soon make lines to the men’s bathroom as long as the one to the women’s bathroom. Also urinals. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/211 "2015-11-13T21:46:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So you’d have no problem with men coming into the women’s room at any time. Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/212 "2015-11-13T21:49:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It’s clearly not in the best interest of men, because women in the men’s bathrooms would soon make lines to the men’s bathroom as long as the one to the women’s bathroom. Incorrect. The lines will be shorter in both than previously in the women’s. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/213 "2015-11-13T23:11:20Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > Incorrect. The lines will be shorter in both than previously in the women’s. That’s actually not a given (queue theory often works in counter logical ways, I remember reading a study which concluded both the men’s and women’s line would be longer). But what matters is that the line for the men’s bathroom would be longer in a unisex situation. Not least because urinals would be made more difficult. But mainly just because women take longer time. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/214 "2015-11-13T23:40:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > That’s actually not a given (queue theory often works in counter logical ways, I remember reading a study which concluded both the men’s and women’s line would be longer). But what matters is that the line for the men’s bathroom would be longer in a unisex situation. Not least because urinals would be made more difficult. But mainly just because women take longer time. So you don’t care about equality, only men’s interests? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/215 "2015-11-13T23:45:56Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > So you don’t care about equality, only men’s interests? True. Equality, when it results in making everybody equally miserably does not interest me. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/216 "2015-11-14T01:25:04Z")
Perfect world scenario: all unisex bathrooms will be stocked with womens paper urine funnels at all times. But would mothers send their daughters to stand and piss next to men? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/217 "2015-11-14T03:33:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think we’ve reached an endless loop in this subroutine. So once again, with feeling…: > > Feminists up and down these endless OP’s have contradicted, corrected and tried to inform your paranoid rhetoric with facts and personal experience and opinion. Each reasonable and informed attempt has been rebuffed only to have you repeat the same tortured logic that supports your irrational efforts to paint all feminists as having the same agenda as a small number of extremists who say crazy shit in service of their own goals and who do nothing in service of gender equality - something that all reasonable posters here have certainly acknowledged, i.e men are not deficient, intercourse is not dehumanizing to women, domestic violence is inexcusable regardless of who perpetrates it, etc…etc… etc… > > But instead of acknowledging that most reasonable people agree that extremist feminist views are not the core tennet of feminism, you resolutely avoid responding to evidence that contradicts your hypothesis - something that, at best, makes you an ideologue. Well, we seem to have different perceptions then. I’ve seen a lot of “I’m a feminist, and that’s not what I believe,” but very little “this is what I believe.” And even less actual condemnation of supposed “extremist” views - views, which as I’ve said, come from leading feminists. Not random people on the internet. **iiandyiii** has said he thinks there should be “no standard” in child custody cases, but also conflates his position with that of the National Organization of Women. Others have said that feminism means equality for women, but they don’t seem to be able to support equality for men - which seems like a strange kind of equality. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/218 "2015-11-14T04:02:36Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Perfect world scenario: all unisex bathrooms will be stocked with womens paper urine funnels at all times. But would mothers send their daughters to stand and piss next to men? Paper urine funnels? How would that work? How would one wipe while holding it? Where does it go afterwards? What about periods? Whose perfect world would this be? And what’s wrong with stalls for everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/219 "2015-11-14T09:28:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > On the contrary, I dearly hope everyone is reading the context of this conversation in full. I don’t want anyone to miss a single drop of your wit and insight. How very generous of you. They’ll also see you doggedly attempting to discuss judaism in a thread on feminism (and my observations on your motivations in that regard - to create a slight possibility of bluffing hard that you’d shown me to be anti-semitic, and to conflate the ‘oppression’ of women with the eternal onslaught of anti-semitism. Curiously, I did once live on a commune which became ‘Wymmins Country’ (after the novel by Sheri S. Tepper) - but that’s an analogy for another thread). > [@Miller](#): > > Also, I see you still haven’t figured out what an ad hominem is. Well, words are tricky. I’m sure you’ll figure it out soon enough. I see you still haven’t figured out mature, respectful discussion - and yet you police it in others. The ad hom was your implied insult standing in for an argument, which satisfies my definition. Your argument that it doesn’t satisfy yours would _be_ an argument if it had any argument in it. As it is, it’s just another insult. I expect there’s a word for that, though I don’t know if it’s one I might use here. > [@Miller](#): > > That’s not what “ethnically Jewish” means. “Ethnically Jewish” means you had at least one parent who was Jewish. Just like “ethnically black” means you had at least one parent who was black. Orphans raised in gentile homes with no knowledge of their heritage, who discover that their birth parents were Jewish, are ethnically Jewish. Who’s deciding who’s black, by the way? In SA, famously, a bureaucracy did that and issued you with a card. ‘Jewish’ is slightly easier, I suppose, though again this may be a US/UK thing - I’ve done some work with BAME groups, where Jews are considered part of ‘collective’ (though not apparently accorded the initial that changed BME to BAME). But again, the thread is on feminism and you keep insisting on discussing judaism, first as a religion and then slithering in ethnicity, with any sense of the original analogy lost in your purposeful confusion. Pull yourself back on topic. Really, who watches this watchman? > [@Miller](#): > > So, that notion of “ethnic feminist” is, not to put too fine a point on it, deeply stupid, because feminism, unlike black, white, hispanic, and, yes, Judaism, is not an ethnicity. Well it’s a religion, as we’ve agreed, and like the romany it’s an ‘ethnicity’ too - more recent than the romany, of course, but carried over generations in communities. You’re going to have to be much clearer on your concepts if you genuinely desire anything other than shadow boxing here. Do all white people share the same ethnicity? > [@Miller](#): > > I am curious about the “self-identity” thing, because self-identity is not really a huge part of feminist theory, except for those parts that overlap with queer theory, where self-identity is a huge issue. So, was that a backhanded swipe at me for being queer? Or just another example of you getting confused about what you’re saying? Are you queer? I might even have bumped into you at a party. Ever been in Dorset? Why you think I should have known, I can’t say. To be fair, you needn’t have know who posted about being a ‘self-identifying [etc]’ repeatedly in one post of this thread. You’re probably just skimming for stuff you can twist into a topic of your own (judaism, for some reason?) > [@Miller](#): > > Well, about as well refuted as you’ve ever refuted anything on this subject, at least. If you recalled that exact quote being presented as a serious refutation from your own side, it would have been sporting to say so. > [@Miller](#): > > This is such a fantastic example of you just not understanding how to put together two sentences to form a coherent argument. You start with, “Feminism ha[s] brought equality… for women,” implying that feminists only want equality for women, and don’t care about inequality towards men. But you don’t seem to understand that “equal” needs a comparison. “Equality only for women” is an intellectually vacant concept, because they need someone to be _equal with_. I haven’t checked the context, but you haven’t ever noticed me repeatedly making that very point, in the last thread and this, as ‘your team’ repeatedly offered ‘equality for women’ as their definition of feminism? One contributor said ‘equality’ between the sexes’, I recall remarking on that singularity at the time. And yet you never felt compelled to point out that they couldn’t form a coherent argument - of course not, theirs was a feminist argument and adherents should not be encouraged to expect coherence. I’ve now checked the context. The issue is clearly yours. Try reading it again slowly, looking up any words you aren’t sure of, and not moving on until you’re confident you’ve understood each element. It would also help to set aside your prejudice. > [@Miller](#): > > And I think we can take your frantic back peddle that you meant “equal” ironically as read. Ah! _There’s_ your problem. Read what _is_ there…and don’t read what isn’t! > [@Miller](#): > > It’s not like you’d convince anyone with it, anyway. Now you just look petulant. Drop the insults and snide insinuations, and discuss the topic, decently. You’re a role model for pity’s sake. > [@Miller](#): > > Cool story, bro. Cool meme, MMMo. > [@Miller](#): > > I don’t know that egalitarians work towards equality, actually, as the only people I know who strongly identify as egalitarians are yourself and **Linus**. And I very much doubt either of you have ever done anything significant to foster equality. So, you know some feminists, but no egalitarians? Are your feminist friends racist? Homophobic? What’s wrong with all the feminists you know? As for your ‘doubts’ about me, or LK, on what basis could these doubts be formed? Make a clear statement of your rational workings, or admit you’re just flinging faeces. How could he, or I, assuage your doubts? Is this a test we can pass? No, you have ‘cool story, bro’ to hand for any anecdote. It’s a shoddy debate tactic, which suggests your position is worth even less as an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/220 "2015-11-14T09:34:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > There, there **iiandyiiii** … > By me, you’re a Jew. > By your father, you’re a Jew. > By your mother, you’re a Jew. > > But by **Jack** … 😉 **MMMiller**! It worked! I hope you took notes, you can use it again: 1. Compare feminism to religion 2. Introduce judaism as the analogous religion 3. Gain statement in relation to said religion 4. Flip to ethnicity and call your opponent an anti-semite 5. Reinforce a false connection between real persecution and ‘women’s oppression’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=12)