# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/221 "2015-11-14T09:46:11Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, we seem to have different perceptions then. I’ve seen a lot of “I’m a feminist, and that’s not what I believe,” but very little “this is what I believe.” And even less actual condemnation of supposed “extremist” views - views, which as I’ve said, come from leading feminists. Not random people on the internet. **iiandyiii** has said he thinks there should be “no standard” in child custody cases, but also conflates his position with that of the National Organization of Women. Others have said that feminism means equality for women, but they don’t seem to be able to support equality for men - which seems like a strange kind of equality. No, **LinusK** , you’re wrong. I’ve pointed out already in this thread, and in the previous one, and I think in the one before it, of a thread _you_ created asking people to define their feminism. And people DID. We defined it, we told you what we believed in, we told you our views. Then you turn around and start these kinds of threads. So no, don’t tell us that you haven’t read “this is what I believe”. Unless you have purposefully decided NOt to read it, it has been given to you, over and over and all across the board. [What does feminism mean to you?, started by LinusK](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=760530). ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/222 "2015-11-14T10:30:44Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, we seem to have different perceptions then. I’ve seen a lot of “I’m a feminist, and that’s not what I believe,” but very little “this is what I believe.” And even less actual condemnation of supposed “extremist” views - views, which as I’ve said, come from leading feminists. Not random people on the internet. **iiandyiii** has said he thinks there should be “no standard” in child custody cases, but also conflates his position with that of the National Organization of Women. Others have said that feminism means equality for women, but they don’t seem to be able to support equality for men - which seems like a strange kind of equality. As just pointed out by **KarlGrenze** , starting with your own thread [What does feminism mean to you?, started by LinusK](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=760530) we have told you specifically what we believe. Repeatedly. Over and over again. Ad nauseum. Perhaps a re-read would be in order. We have condemned extremist views. Repeatedly. Over and over. Using our own words. Using cites. Debunking your cites. Again and again and again and again. Are you familiar with Sartre? Just a few posts ago **Miller** reminded **Jack** about the core truth of “equality”. It doesn’t connote “superiority” or mean “alone”. It takes another group or party to be equal with. Another concept you may want to look at. I see no way we are going to move forward. Your posts have circled back to where they started weeks ago. Truthfully, they’ve never left where they started. My suggestion would be to close the thread and come back when you have something to new to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/223 "2015-11-14T14:24:50Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, we seem to have different perceptions then. I’ve seen a lot of “I’m a feminist, and that’s not what I believe,” but very little “this is what I believe.” And even less actual condemnation of supposed “extremist” views - views, which as I’ve said, come from leading feminists. Not random people on the internet. **iiandyiii** has said he thinks there should be “no standard” in child custody cases, but also conflates his position with that of the National Organization of Women. Others have said that feminism means equality for women, but they don’t seem to be able to support equality for men - which seems like a strange kind of equality. You give me no other option but to conclude that you purposefully avoid reading and considering any and all information that contradicts your firmly set convictions. I don’t know if it’s pathological or deliberate. Either way, the result is not so much a debate or conversation as much as your own personal witnessing platform. That being the case, what are you getting from posting here instead of simply creating your own blog? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/224 "2015-11-14T14:30:28Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > How very generous of you. They’ll also see you doggedly attempting to discuss judaism in a thread on feminism (and my observations on your motivations in that regard - to create a slight possibility of bluffing hard that you’d shown me to be anti-semitic, and to conflate the ‘oppression’ of women with the eternal onslaught of anti-semitism. Curiously, I did once live on a commune which became ‘Wymmins Country’ (after the novel by Sheri S. Tepper) - but that’s an analogy for another thread). > > I see you still haven’t figured out mature, respectful discussion - and yet you police it in others. The ad hom was your implied insult standing in for an argument, which satisfies my definition. Your argument that it doesn’t satisfy yours would _be_ an argument if it had any argument in it. As it is, it’s just another insult. I expect there’s a word for that, though I don’t know if it’s one I might use here. > > Who’s deciding who’s black, by the way? In SA, famously, a bureaucracy did that and issued you with a card. ‘Jewish’ is slightly easier, I suppose, though again this may be a US/UK thing - I’ve done some work with BAME groups, where Jews are considered part of ‘collective’ (though not apparently accorded the initial that changed BME to BAME). But again, the thread is on feminism and you keep insisting on discussing judaism, first as a religion and then slithering in ethnicity, with any sense of the original analogy lost in your purposeful confusion. Pull yourself back on topic. Really, who watches this watchman? > > Well it’s a religion, as we’ve agreed, and like the romany it’s an ‘ethnicity’ too - more recent than the romany, of course, but carried over generations in communities. You’re going to have to be much clearer on your concepts if you genuinely desire anything other than shadow boxing here. Do all white people share the same ethnicity? > > Are you queer? I might even have bumped into you at a party. Ever been in Dorset? Why you think I should have known, I can’t say. To be fair, you needn’t have know who posted about being a ‘self-identifying [etc]’ repeatedly in one post of this thread. You’re probably just skimming for stuff you can twist into a topic of your own (judaism, for some reason?) > > If you recalled that exact quote being presented as a serious refutation from your own side, it would have been sporting to say so. > > I haven’t checked the context, but you haven’t ever noticed me repeatedly making that very point, in the last thread and this, as ‘your team’ repeatedly offered ‘equality for women’ as their definition of feminism? One contributor said ‘equality’ between the sexes’, I recall remarking on that singularity at the time. > > And yet you never felt compelled to point out that they couldn’t form a coherent argument - of course not, theirs was a feminist argument and adherents should not be encouraged to expect coherence. > > I’ve now checked the context. The issue is clearly yours. Try reading it again slowly, looking up any words you aren’t sure of, and not moving on until you’re confident you’ve understood each element. It would also help to set aside your prejudice. > > Ah! _There’s_ your problem. Read what _is_ there…and don’t read what isn’t! > > Now you just look petulant. Drop the insults and snide insinuations, and discuss the topic, decently. You’re a role model for pity’s sake. > > Cool meme, MMMo. > > So, you know some feminists, but no egalitarians? Are your feminist friends racist? Homophobic? What’s wrong with all the feminists you know? > > As for your ‘doubts’ about me, or LK, on what basis could these doubts be formed? Make a clear statement of your rational workings, or admit you’re just flinging faeces. How could he, or I, assuage your doubts? Is this a test we can pass? No, you have ‘cool story, bro’ to hand for any anecdote. It’s a shoddy debate tactic, which suggests your position is worth even less as an argument. Never has so much been said by so few to convey so little. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/225 "2015-11-14T14:37:17Z")
LinusK, how do you think we can get men more equally involved in childcare? I just had a conversation yesterday with a colleague. She asked me to arrange a business visitor during the time her mother is in town, because otherwise she can’t go out to dinner with the visitor. I am confused, because she has a husband. She said her husband could (would) not care for the two kids (~5 and 8, so not infants) alone in the evening. He spends so little time with the kids that the younger one is uncomfortable with him and when my colleague travels for work, a babysitter comes and stays overnight. She makes six figures and works a demanding job. There are lots and lots of these discussions among mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/226 "2015-11-14T14:56:41Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > LinusK, how do you think we can get men more equally involved in childcare? > > I just had a conversation yesterday with a colleague. She asked me to arrange a business visitor during the time her mother is in town, because otherwise she can’t go out to dinner with the visitor. I am confused, because she has a husband. She said her husband could (would) not care for the two kids (~5 and 8, so not infants) alone in the evening. He spends so little time with the kids that the younger one is uncomfortable with him and when my colleague travels for work, a babysitter comes and stays overnight. She makes six figures and works a demanding job. There are lots and lots of these discussions among mothers. Why would she want to have kids with a guy who don’t want to see his own kids? Sounds like she chose the wrong guy to start a family with. That sucks for her, but her partner choice is not a collective societal issue. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/227 "2015-11-14T15:14:22Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why would she want to have kids with a guy who don’t want to see his own kids? Sounds like she chose the wrong guy to start a family with. That sucks for her, but her partner choice is not a collective societal issue. She might have asked the appointment be changed to accomodate any number of perfectly reasonable situations: sick parent, PTA meeting, dentist appointment, another meeting, whatever… What impact does this have on society except that a business related scheduling change is being requested/accomodated? ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/228 "2015-11-14T15:34:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why would she want to have kids with a guy who don’t want to see his own kids? Sounds like she chose the wrong guy to start a family with. That sucks for her, but her partner choice is not a collective societal issue. He pushed her to have kids, claiming that he likes kids and will be an equal parent. Before kids, they shared household responsibilities equally and he showed no sign that he’d slack off on his parenting duties. This seems to be a recurrent theme – guys like the idea of being a dad but when the poopy diapers appear suddenly it becomes “whoa I can’t handle that”. Are you suggesting that every couple foster some kids first before having their own, just to make sure the guy does actually have what it takes to be an equal parent? It makes good sense, though I don’t know how practical. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/229 "2015-11-14T15:48:02Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > He pushed her to have kids, claiming that he likes kids and will be an equal parent. Before kids, they shared household responsibilities equally and he showed no sign that he’d slack off on his parenting duties. This seems to be a recurrent theme – guys like the idea of being a dad but when the poopy diapers appear suddenly it becomes “whoa I can’t handle that”. Pressured? You make it sound like she has no free will. In any case, people seldom reveal themselves as suddenly completely different people. And they have two kids – if the first didn’t clue her in, well then. And she’s not divorced either. This is no different from all other cases of men and women who marry subpar husbands and wives. > [@BrightSunshine](#): > > Are you suggesting that every couple foster some kids first before having their own, just to make sure the guy does actually have what it takes to be an equal parent? It makes good sense, though I don’t know how practical. I’m suggesting that poor choice of mate is not a problem which should be fixed by society. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/230 "2015-11-14T15:48:42Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > her partner choice is not a collective societal issue. So is it a collective social issue when 85% of custodial parents are mothers, or is it simply a matter of partner choice? Is it a collective social issue when fathers are not equally involved in childcare as mothers, or is it simply a matter of partner choice? Is it a collective social issue when there is domestic violence, or is it simply a matter of partner choice? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/231 "2015-11-14T16:01:27Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > [We’ve done this before, don’t you remember?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=760530) Yes. And those answers were all over the place - meaning they were contradictory. If feminism is whatever anybody thinks it is, without reference to the words and actions of its leaders and founders, it’s at least self-contradictory, if not meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/232 "2015-11-14T16:06:51Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Nooooot in any particular way. Oooooobviously if the story is an accurate representation, then there’s something very wrong with the nature of these kind of cases in NY. But that’s already widely accepted, and I’m mostly responding to the common feminist reply to mras that they are wrong for seeking out men’s groups, and that they should use feminism. Feminism does not deal well with problems particular related to men, and I see no reason it should as it is a women’s activist group. It’s not feminism that is wrong, it is feminists who claim feminism is the answer to men’s problems. Feminism does have an answer for men’s problems: [I bathe in male tears](http://9gag.com/gag/aoZRjYe/-i-bathe-in-male-tears). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/233 "2015-11-14T16:17:43Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Feminism does have an answer for men’s problems: [I bathe in male tears](http://9gag.com/gag/aoZRjYe/-i-bathe-in-male-tears). You love playing that victim card, don’t you, LK? In fact, your entire deck of cards is stacked with them. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/234 "2015-11-14T16:19:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Robin Morgan: “I feel that man-hating is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” > > As a self-identifying mainstream feminist, I strongly condemn this misandric extremist position. > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Mary Daly: “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” > > As a self-identifying mainstream feminist, I strongly condemn this misandric extremist position. > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Sally Miller Gearhart: “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” > > As a self-identifying mainstream feminist, I strongly condemn this misandric extremist position. > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Andrea Dworkin: “All personal, psychological, social, and institutionalized domination on this earth can be traced back to its source: the phallic identities of men” > > As a self-identifying mainstream feminist, I strongly con… Wait! Is she calling all men dicks?! > > Happy?.. Congratulations, you’ve made the first step toward liberation. Second step: stop calling yourself “mainstream”. Each of those feminists are activists, authors, and leaders within the feminist movement. Each has her own Wikipedia page. Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/235 "2015-11-14T16:48:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Congratulations, you’ve made the first step toward liberation. Second step: stop calling yourself “mainstream”. I don’t accept that your definition of feminism and what falls into the mainstream overrides mine. Why would I? All my experiences with feminism and with feminists tell me that my beliefs fall into the mainstream – only you, and Jack, are telling me that they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/236 "2015-11-14T20:14:35Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yes. And those answers were all over the place - meaning they were contradictory. > > If feminism is whatever anybody thinks it is, without reference to the words and actions of its leaders and founders, it’s at least self-contradictory, if not meaningless. Different variations of “women shall have the same opportunities as men” does not mean contradictory. And I’ll point out that every single self-identifying feminist in that thread typed something along those lines. ONLY those who do not describe themselves as feminists described feminism in the disparaging terms you now use, or close to it. So save me the complain about contradictory responses. So yes, the feminists did tell you what feminism was, and what each of their personal core stances were. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/237 "2015-11-14T22:37:46Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yes. And those answers were all over the place - meaning they were contradictory. > > If feminism is whatever anybody thinks it is, without reference to the words and actions of its leaders and founders, it’s at least self-contradictory, if not meaningless. Which answers were contradictory? I didn’t see those. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/238 "2015-11-15T01:57:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Sure, but then you have to learn to be okay with having no-one to talk to at parties. Why do you think I hang out here? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/239 "2015-11-15T02:01:03Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Feminism does have an answer for men’s problems: [I bathe in male tears](http://9gag.com/gag/aoZRjYe/-i-bathe-in-male-tears). No, that it not feminism’s answer. It is one person’s t-shirt. One shirt didn’t cause an uproar because nobody saw it on national TV. It also is a joke anyway. You are smart enough to understand all the twisted, unfair “logic” you constantly use, especially when you are called on it over and over. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/240 "2015-11-15T02:03:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yes. And those answers were all over the place - meaning they were contradictory. > > If feminism is whatever anybody thinks it is, without reference to the words and actions of its leaders and founders, it’s at least self-contradictory, if not meaningless. But you don’t look at the words of its leaders and founder either - you look at only certain leaders and founders, and certain words. You ignore the vast majority, which don’t say what you like. And all movements have people with contrary opinions and could all be called “self-contradictory.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=13)