# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/481 "2015-12-08T05:19:58Z")
In an effort to return the thread to substance - what do I have against feminism? 1.) The first is that at least some feminists pretend it’s about equality, when it’s not. 2.) A strain of hatred-of-men runs through feminism, at least as far back as the second wave feminists of the 60’s & 70’s. 3.) Feminists have little regard for the truth. They prefer stories that make them feel good, reinforce their sense of victimhood, or both. Slut Walks are a prime example. They give young, attractive women a chance to show off, while pretending it’s for a good cause - as if marching naked stops rape. 4.) Feminism asserts that women are oppressed, when they’re not. 5.) Feminism ignores the institutional biases against men. And, in at least some cases, actively works to defend or expand them. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/482 "2015-12-08T20:46:01Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > In an effort to return the thread to substance - what do I have against feminism? > > 1.) The first is that at least some feminists pretend it’s about equality, when it’s not. > > 2.) A strain of hatred-of-men runs through feminism, at least as far back as the second wave feminists of the 60’s & 70’s. > > 3.) Feminists have little regard for the truth. They prefer stories that make them feel good, reinforce their sense of victimhood, or both. Slut Walks are a prime example. They give young, attractive women a chance to show off, while pretending it’s for a good cause - as if marching naked stops rape. > > 4.) Feminism asserts that women are oppressed, when they’re not. > > 5.) Feminism ignores the institutional biases against men. And, in at least some cases, actively works to defend or expand them. They’re not responding here because they’re having too much fun in the Pit (where, I was once reminded, they don’t have to concern themselves with facts). Even there (as here) they only respond to the bits they think they can see a chink in, and never the bits they can’t find even a half-assed objection to. In this case, they think they see a loophole for no.3, but apparently prefer not to acknowledge 1, 2, 4 and 5. Which must mean they concede them. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/483 "2015-12-08T21:44:32Z")
They may not respond here, actually. The strategy discussion in the Pit at the moment is that if everyone (ie, the feminists) can resist the temptation to respond (they do actually liken it to an addiction 🙂 )then the thread will eventually get closed down…and nobody will ever chance upon a dissenting voice. That seems to be the best they can come up with - in the absence of actual arguments, and with shaming failing to silence, they’re banking on you (and me, I guess - those who don’t bizarrely imagine we’re the same person) just giving up. I wonder if they realise anyone can listen in on their strategising? Personally, I’m surprised the thread hasn’t been locked anyway - the mods aren’t even pretending to impartiality and they don’t seem to have any oversight. Here or in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/484 "2015-12-09T10:14:38Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > They’re not responding here because they’re having too much fun in the Pit (where, I was once reminded, they don’t have to concern themselves with facts). Perhaps when you start concerning yourself with facts, we will too. > [@](#): > > Even there (as here) they only respond to the bits they think they can see a chink in, and never the bits they can’t find even a half-assed objection to. In this case, they think they see a loophole for no.3, but apparently prefer not to acknowledge 1, 2, 4 and 5. Which must mean they concede them. Well done. Have fun playing with your strawmen. Strawwomen. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/485 "2015-12-09T10:28:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Perhaps when you start concerning yourself with facts, we will too. > > Have fun playing with your strawmen. Strawwomen. Whatever. ‘Perhaps’ you’ll eventually concern yourself with facts? Did you think that through? There we have it. The feminists in this debate concede not only that they have thus far been unconcerned with facts, but aren’t even sure they’ll use any in the future. They just might, ‘perhaps’. Perhaps not… Feminism and facts…go together like a pig and carriage ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/486 "2015-12-10T02:23:45Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > They may not respond here, actually. The strategy discussion in the Pit at the moment is that if everyone (ie, the feminists) can resist the temptation to respond (they do actually liken it to an addiction 🙂 )then the thread will eventually get closed down…and nobody will ever chance upon a dissenting voice. That seems to be the best they can come up with - in the absence of actual arguments, and with shaming failing to silence, they’re banking on you (and me, I guess - those who don’t bizarrely imagine we’re the same person) just giving up. I wonder if they realise anyone can listen in on their strategising? Personally, I’m surprised the thread hasn’t been locked anyway - the mods aren’t even pretending to impartiality and they don’t seem to have any oversight. Here or in the Pit. It doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve said most of what I want to say. If the feminists would prefer an echo chamber in the pit, it really only underlines what I’ve been saying: they’re not capable of using logic and evidence to support their case: they prefer feelz before realz. I will say [this](COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo., December 7, 2015—Colorado College has suspended and banned a student from campus for nearly two years in response to a comment intended as a joke on the anonymous social media application Yik Yak.) though: > [@](#): > > COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo., December 7, 2015—Colorado College has suspended and banned a student from campus for nearly two years in response to a comment intended as a joke on the anonymous social media application Yik Yak… I went to an extremely liberal college 20+ years ago. Free speech was celebrated there. Controversy was welcomed. The thought that somebody could be thrown out for something she said was unthinkable. Feminism, on the other hand, is authoritarian; it’s about squelching free speech, and eliminating dissent. It does not belong within the framework of liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/487 "2015-12-10T15:08:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve said most of what I want to say. If the feminists would prefer an echo chamber in the pit, it really only underlines what I’ve been saying: they’re not capable of using logic and evidence to support their case: they prefer feelz before realz. What I particularly admire about this thread, and all of the others you’ve started “On Feminism”, is your ability to ignore all of the facts, logic, and evidence that have been presented, in favor of stalwartly holding forth on your own position in your own posts. The fact that the “other side” no longer chooses to post in _your_ echo chamber does not mean you have won the Internet. It means that there is no point in arguing a position in a witnessing thread. Enjoy your blog “On Feminism”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/488 "2015-12-10T15:43:40Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > In an effort to return the thread to substance - what do I have against feminism? > > 1.) The first is that at least some feminists pretend it’s about equality, when it’s not. It is about equality > [@](#): > > 2.) A strain of hatred-of-men runs through feminism, at least as far back as the second wave feminists of the 60’s & 70’s. A much, much, much, much more virulent form of hatred-of-women runs through the “MRA” and “Egalitarian” movements. > [@](#): > > 3.) Feminists have little regard for the truth. They prefer stories that make them feel good, reinforce their sense of victimhood, or both. Slut Walks are a prime example. They give young, attractive women a chance to show off, while pretending it’s for a good cause - as if marching naked stops rape. This is wrong > [@](#): > > 4.) Feminism asserts that women are oppressed, when they’re not. This is wrong > [@](#): > > 5.) Feminism ignores the institutional biases against men. And, in at least some cases, actively works to defend or expand them. This is also wrong. Your problem isn’t with feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/489 "2015-12-10T17:02:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It is about equality It demonstrably isn’t. Even here, it’s been about ‘equality for women’. Which is not equality… > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > A much, much, much, much more virulent form of hatred-of-women runs through the “MRA” and “Egalitarian” movements. There are some bitter MRAs, who like bitter feminists blame the other sex. As an egalitarian, they disgust and disturb me (both kinds). There is no ‘egalitarian movement’, that I’m aware of. I lived at an egalitarian commune once, but some feminists turned it into ‘women’s country’. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This is wrong > > This is wrong > > This is also wrong. You know what’s really wrong? Not even trying to back up your childish gainsaying with anything at all. We don’t expect facts (that’s been covered above), but deary me, do at least _pretend_ you have an argument. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Your problem isn’t with feminism. Are we only allowed one problem at a time? Can’t speak for Linus, but I’ve got 99…of which feminism is one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/490 "2015-12-10T17:15:41Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > It demonstrably isn’t. Even here, it’s been about ‘equality for women’. Which is not equality… OK, wow…so, first, equality for women = equality. It’s a math thing. If A = B, then B = A. I shouldn’t have had to explain that to you. Second, it demonstrably is, so you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > There are some bitter MRAs Some? The level of bitter insanity in the MRA community is off the fucking charts. And the difference between the MRA community and the “Egalitarian” community is branding. > [@](#): > > You know what’s really wrong? Not even trying to back up your childish gainsaying with anything at all. We don’t expect facts (that’s been covered above), but deary me, do at least _pretend_ you have an argument. I don’t know what you’re expecting. You say shit that’s wrong, and I tell you it’s wrong. Come up with an argument that deserves more than a “you’re wrong” response, and I’ll give you more than a “you’re wrong” response. But you understand how that first bit is important? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/491 "2015-12-10T20:23:48Z")
Name one bitter MRA. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/492 "2015-12-10T21:00:29Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Name one bitter MRA. Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/493 "2015-12-10T21:18:31Z")
Fair enough. Name a thousand more. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/494 "2015-12-10T21:26:13Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Fair enough. Name a thousand more. I’ll get right on that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/495 "2015-12-10T21:26:24Z")
All the rest of them. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/496 "2015-12-10T23:38:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, wow…so, first, equality for women = equality. It’s a math thing. If A = B, then B = A. I shouldn’t have had to explain that to you. > > Second, it demonstrably is, so you’re wrong. > > Some? The level of bitter insanity in the MRA community is off the fucking charts. And the difference between the MRA community and the “Egalitarian” community is branding. > > I don’t know what you’re expecting. You say shit that’s wrong, and I tell you it’s wrong. > > Come up with an argument that deserves more than a “you’re wrong” response, and I’ll give you more than a “you’re wrong” response. But you understand how that first bit is important? Well, normally I’d compose a reasoned response. But taking your cue, I have only this to say: _You’re_ wrong. And that’s the standard feminists set for debate. ‘Nyar nyar you’re wrong! No, you’re wrong. No you’re wrong _and_ you smell of poo’. Demonstrably not from a position of oppression. Demonstrably not about equality. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/497 "2015-12-10T23:52:53Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > > > OK, wow…so, first, equality for women = equality. It’s a math thing. If A = B, then B = A. I shouldn’t have had to explain that to you. > > Well, normally I’d compose a reasoned response. But taking your cue, I have only this to say: > > _You’re_ wrong. Your argument is with math, logic, and reality, not me. Though your failure to understand the concept of equality 496 posts into a thread on the concept of equality suggests that you’re probably not going to win that argument. > [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > here, it’s been about ‘equality for women’. > [@](#): > > Demonstrably not about equality. You should make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/498 "2015-12-11T01:59:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And you’ve confused “Pretending that there are no inequities,” with “Being against inequities.” You’re no more an egalitarian than Donald Trump. I’d direct you to the 2nd sticky on the top of the forum: _The general rule is to attack the other poster’s **arguments** , rather than the other poster him- or herself._ [Emphasis original.] ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/499 "2015-12-11T02:02:31Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > What I particularly admire about this thread, and all of the others you’ve started “On Feminism”, is your ability to ignore all of the facts, logic, and evidence that have been presented, in favor of stalwartly holding forth on your own position in your own posts. The fact that the “other side” no longer chooses to post in _your_ echo chamber does not mean you have won the Internet. It means that there is no point in arguing a position in a witnessing thread. > > Enjoy your blog “On Feminism”. If you’d said anything substantive, I could respond. You didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/500 "2015-12-11T02:15:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If you’d said anything substantive, I could respond. > > You didn’t. Your entire “debate” boils down to you not knowing what the word “feminism” means, but you think the problem is that other people’s comments aren’t substantive? OK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=26)