# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/521 "2015-12-11T23:42:19Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > That depends on the true reason, doesn’t it? Quite the opposite. You gave a scenario as to why a school would openly admit discrimination rather than admit the real reason for not hiring someone. Now, ignore for a moment what the real reason is, whether the story ever happened, or whether Jack of Words is a real person or a 'bot. The mere fact that you offered this as a plausible scenario still says something about how we expect men and women to be treated in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/522 "2015-12-11T23:56:34Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Quite the opposite. You gave a scenario as to why a school would openly admit discrimination rather than admit the real reason for not hiring someone. Now, ignore for a moment what the real reason is, whether the story ever happened, or whether Jack of Words is a real person or a 'bot. The mere fact that you offered this as a plausible scenario still says something about how we expect men and women to be treated in the world. First, you’re presuming that I wouldn’t have offered it as a scenario in the alternative scenario, which is awfully presumptuous of you. But that aside, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/523 "2015-12-12T00:29:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > First, you’re presuming that I wouldn’t have offered it as a scenario in the alternative scenario,… Would you have? I think the scenario becomes less plausible[sup]\*[/sup], or at least the reactions to it would be different, if the genders are reversed. A company that openly admitted to discriminating against a woman would face a backlash[sup]+[/sup] (legal and/or popular), or, at the very least, would recognize the possibility of such a thing and would want to guard against it. Indeed, aren’t most tales of workplace discrimination quite the reverse of what we’re discussing; firing a woman (or minority, or…) because she’s a woman and then concocting a bogus explanation to avoid admitting the truth? - I question how likely this is even for a man. I suppose anything is possible, but I can’t see why an employer would admit discrimination, _especially_ when it’s not even true. - To be clear, I’m not criticizing the backlash, just positing that it could exist, or at least be a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/524 "2015-12-12T02:12:43Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The mere fact that you offered this as a plausible scenario still says something about how we expect men and women to be treated in the world. Um, “we?” So far, the only people in this thread who think that’s a plausible scenario are \*_Evil Economist_ and **Jack**. I don’t think two people holding an opinion quite extends to a social trend. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/525 "2015-12-12T02:18:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Um, “we?” So far, the only people in this thread who think that’s a plausible scenario are \*_Evil Economist_ and **Jack**. I don’t think two people holding an opinion quite extends to a social trend. I haven’t seen Jack of Words comment on it, so it’s just EE so far. On the other hand, nobody stepped up to call it implausible, either, and truly off-the-wall ideas usually get shot down pretty quickly around here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/526 "2015-12-12T02:29:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I haven’t seen Jack of Words comment on it… Well, it was his story, so I’m assuming he finds the idea that he was refused a job just for being a man to be plausible. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, nobody stepped up to call it implausible, either, and truly off-the-wall ideas usually get shot down pretty quickly around here. Your on page eleven of a thread that went terminally stupid on page one. Anyone with sense is staying out of it by this point. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/527 "2015-12-12T02:38:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, it was his story, so I’m assuming he finds the idea that he was refused a job just for being a man to be plausible. Not quite. I’m not talking about Jack’s original story of being openly discriminated against, but rather Evil Econ’s scenario that he offered later in critique of Jack; to wit, that the school might have lied about the discrimination to avoid giving the real reason. > [@](#): > > Your on page eleven of a thread that went terminally stupid on page one. Anyone with sense is staying out of it by this point. And yet, here we both are. I guess I think there are still some interesting points on this subject that might be uncovered; complicated, subtle, and we’ll probably never balance the scales completely, but still interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/528 "2015-12-12T02:48:44Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Not quite. I’m not talking about Jack’s original story of being openly discriminated against, but rather Evil Econ’s scenario that he offered later in critique of Jack; to wit, that the school might have lied about the discrimination to avoid giving the real reason. I don’t even know wtf we’re talking about at this point. If your point is that societal gynocentrism means not having people tell you to your face the real reason they won’t hire you, then I guess that just demonstrates the power of societal gynocentrism. If your point is that women and men are treated differently then let’s just take that as a given. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/529 "2015-12-12T02:49:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Not quite. I’m not talking about Jack’s original story of being openly discriminated against, but rather Evil Econ’s scenario that he offered later in critique of Jack; to wit, that the school might have lied about the discrimination to avoid giving the real reason. I think you’re kind of straining for a distinction, there. > [@](#): > > And yet, here we both are. Yes, that was the joke. > [@](#): > > I guess I think there are still some interesting points on this subject that might be uncovered; complicated, subtle, and we’ll probably never balance the scales completely, but still interesting. We haven’t found one in eleven pages, but I admire your optimism. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/530 "2015-12-12T02:55:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > We haven’t found one in eleven pages, but I admire your optimism. > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > I guess I think there are still some interesting points on this subject that might be uncovered; complicated, subtle, and we’ll probably never balance the scales completely, but still interesting. Well, personally, I stumbled across the term “societal gynocentrism,” which \*\*Jack \*\*apparently used unironically, and which is now my favorite phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/531 "2015-12-12T03:12:50Z")
11 pages just in _this_ thread. There have been others… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/532 "2015-12-12T03:32:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I don’t even know wtf we’re talking about at this point. If your point is that societal gynocentrism means not having people tell you to your face the real reason they won’t hire you, then I guess that just demonstrates the power of societal gynocentrism. If your point is that women and men are treated differently then let’s just take that as a given. > [@Miller](#): > > I think you’re kind of straining for a distinction, there. I’ve never used the words “societal gynocentrism”, so please don’t read into my words things that aren’t there. I don’t think I’m straining for a distinction. A part of feminism, it seems to me, is that words and actions contain clues to our habits and assumptions about men and women. And pointing out those clues can bring the assumptions to light, help us question them, and hopefully overcome them. My point (part of it, anyway) is that that cuts both ways. There are subtle clues about how men are treated, too, and it should be fair, even expected, to point them out. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/533 "2015-12-12T15:03:35Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > All genders are equal, but some are more equal than others? Yes. Let me try another analogy: suppose you were for equality _for_ whites. You looked at NBA players making $1 million or more, and discovered they were 80% black - despite blacks being 12% of the population. If you were for equality _for_ whites, you’d point at that as a prime example of black privilege, and demand the NBA do something about it. Meanwhile, you’d awkwardly ignore every every other area where whites are more privileged than blacks. Being _for_ equality for one group doesn’t mean you’re for equality for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/534 "2015-12-12T15:13:17Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t necessarily agree with your analysis. > > Your points 1 and 2 seem somewhat redundant. If the anecdote is true (1) then they’ve stated outright that he was denied employment because of his gender (2), rather than “myriad other reasons”. As for 3 and 4, it may not be true that feminist ideals caused the discrimination, rather that it represents a double standard that feminism hasn’t fought male discrimination in traditionally female occupations as vigorously as they have to open traditionally male occupations (like STEM) to women. > > Of course, I don’t speak for **Jack of Words**. There’s a desperate need for more men in elementary education. Boys are falling behind in every conceivable category. They’re graded worse, they’re drugged more often, they’re labelled problem children, they’re disciplined more often and they drop out of school more often. But feminists don’t care. Not only do they not care about men; they don’t even care about boys. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/535 "2015-12-12T15:21:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’s a possibility, but it also suggests a double standard. Would they tell a woman that she wasn’t being hired because she was a woman? Would they open themselves up to a discrimination lawsuit just to spare her feelings? If she shared that story on a website (as **Jack** has done here) or on social media would people suggest she made it up or would there be a backlash against the school? > > Indeed, your suggestion of this possibility accepts the double standard whether Jack’s story happened or not. You’re saying that a school could openly admit to discrimination against a man because it would better than hurting his feelings with the true reason. Any number of feminists have told personal stories that have been accepted unconditionally. It’s called confirmation bias: people accept what fits their preconceptions, and reject what doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/536 "2015-12-12T16:33:02Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It’s called confirmation bias: people accept what fits their preconceptions, and reject what doesn’t. Yeah, I’m familiar with confirmation bias. The hard part is trying to identify it in ourselves and not just in everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/537 "2015-12-12T16:48:41Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s a desperate need for more men in elementary education. Boys are falling behind in every conceivable category. They’re graded worse, they’re drugged more often, they’re labelled problem children, they’re disciplined more often and they drop out of school more often. But feminists don’t care. Not only do they not care about men; they don’t even care about boys. I think plenty of posters here and in other threads (not even those started by you, but other threads in general) have commented and lamented this lack of men in elementary education. Most of them also identify as feminists. You wish to ignore what does not fit into your narrative. Then you should not be surprised when people ignore your comments, for they are tired of pointing out the misconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/538 "2015-12-12T18:06:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Well, personally, I stumbled across the term “societal gynocentrism,” which \*\*Jack \*\*apparently used unironically, and which is now my favorite phrase. Me too! It’s remarkable how often the phrase can be worked into any and all conversations. “Is my tie on straight?” “You wouldn’t have to wear that tie if there were more societal gynocentrism.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/539 "2015-12-12T21:00:44Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s a desperate need for more men in elementary education. Boys are falling behind in every conceivable category. They’re graded worse, they’re drugged more often, they’re labelled problem children, they’re disciplined more often and they drop out of school more often. And this was caused by feminism how? > [@](#): > > But feminists don’t care. Not only do they not care about men; they don’t even care about boys. Right now, little girls are dying of AIDS in africa. Anti-feminists don’t care. Not only do they not care about women, they don’t care about girls. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/540 "2015-12-12T22:21:31Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s a desperate need for more men in elementary education. Boys are falling behind in every conceivable category. They’re graded worse, they’re drugged more often, they’re labelled problem children, they’re disciplined more often and they drop out of school more often. But feminists don’t care. Not only do they not care about men; they don’t even care about boys. > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I think plenty of posters here and in other threads (not even those started by you, but other threads in general) have commented and lamented this lack of men in elementary education. Most of them also identify as feminists. It gets mentioned, certainly, but does it get as much attention as those areas in which women lag behind, like STEM? Have we taken any steps to make education better for boys, and have they shown any results yet? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And this was caused by feminism how? Did LinusK claim that it was? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=28)