# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/721 "2016-01-14T05:38:12Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Thank you. The public must be educated about the discrimination faced by male victims of domestic violence. Unfortunately anyone who raises this issue is going to be subject to many personal attacks. That’s an unfalsifiable claim. Raises the issue how? “Many” = what precisely? I agree that it’s clearly the case that female-on-male domestic abuse is a serious issue, and almost certainly one that is under-discussed in today’s society. But framing that as “anyone who even talks about it is going to be attacked by the elites” or anything like that just makes you sound paranoid. So can you be a bit more clear about what precisely you’re implying? In what context did you raise that issue, and what personal attacks were you subjected to? Or alternatively, in what context would you have raised that issue were it not for the personal attacks you expected? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/722 "2016-01-14T18:55:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So can you be a bit more clear about what precisely you’re implying? In what context did you raise that issue, and what personal attacks were you subjected to? Just 20 years of personal experience online. Nevertheless they are not going to silence us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/723 "2016-01-14T19:09:10Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Just 20 years of personal experience online. Nevertheless they are not going to silence us. Who’s not going to silence you? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/724 "2016-01-14T19:17:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Who’s not going to silence you? The word you can refer to myself or to many people who speak about discrimination against men. Me – anyone who insults me for my opinions. Us – I do not think Internet can be censored. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/725 "2016-01-14T19:32:47Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > The word you can refer to myself or to many people who speak about discrimination against men. Beyond domestic violence, which we can all agree is unacceptable no matter the gender, what specific discrimination against men have you yourself experienced? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/726 "2016-01-14T21:39:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In what demonstrable way has feminism injured or othewise negatively impacted you, **LinusK**? A criminal defense lawyer is a professional who helps mostly men. He/she also witnesses discrimination against men: [63% longer](https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx) in most cases, much much longer in Domestic Violence cases. A Defense Attorney lives through hundreds of such cases, and yet he/she is neither a criminal nor a loser. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/727 "2016-01-15T02:16:57Z")
**CCitizen** , the question you just answered was not directed at you. Since you are interested in answering, could you answer it from your own perspective and experiences? **LinusK** can speak for himself. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/728 "2016-01-15T02:20:56Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > **CCitizen** , the question you just answered was not directed at you. > > Since you are interested in answering, could you answer it from your own perspective and experiences? **LinusK** can speak for himself. My biography is neither exciting nor relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/729 "2016-01-15T02:38:36Z")
Then why were you answering the question? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/730 "2016-01-15T02:41:14Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Just 20 years of personal experience online. Nevertheless they are not going to silence us. You may be interested to [know that](http://www.xyonline.net/sites/default/files/Kimmel,%20Gender%20symmetry%20in%20dom.pdf): Men who are assaulted by intimates are actually more likely to call the police, more likely to press charges, and less likely to drop them (Ferrante, Morgan, Indermaur, & Harding, 1996; Rouse, Breen, & Howell, 1988; Schwartz, 1987) So the people who are trying to silence “us” are doing a pretty bad job. Anyway, sorry to interrupt you with facts. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/731 "2016-01-15T03:12:40Z")
Fortunately in the age of Social Networks more and more men and some women realize that the male victims of intimate partner terrorism suffer [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf). Many male victims [are arrested themselves](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061547/How-male-victims-of-domestic-abuse-often-end-up-getting-arrested-themselves.html). In any case The Telegraph has committed a crime of Political Incorrectness by mentioning male victims of DV. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/732 "2016-01-15T03:20:37Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately in the age of Social Networks more and more men and some women realize that the male victims of intimate partner terrorism suffer [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf). Yes, and female victims of domestic violence [tend to _die_](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/domestic-violence-statistics_n_5959776.html). But discrimination is bad too. > [@](#): > > Many male victims [are arrested themselves](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061547/How-male-victims-of-domestic-abuse-often-end-up-getting-arrested-themselves.html). According to the men arrested, they were the real victims. > [@](#): > > In any case The Telegraph has committed a crime of Political Incorrectness by mentioning male victims of DV. According to who? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/733 "2016-01-15T03:26:03Z")
I understand that male victims who survive any amount of non – lethal abuse do not count. Fortunately more men are realizing that [abuse of men](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/why-will-no-one-fund-male-domestic-abuse-charities/) is a vastly under reported and ignored problem. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/734 "2016-01-15T03:31:52Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I understand that male victims who survive any amount of non – lethal abuse do not count. Is that something anyone besides you said? If you’re interested in non-lethal abuse, then you should know that[women are more subject to non-lethal abuse than men](http://www.xyonline.net/sites/default/files/Kimmel,%20Gender%20symmetry%20in%20dom.pdf). But every day you ignore lethal abuse 3 women a day die. But I guess you have a point to make, so fuck those dead women, right? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/735 "2016-01-15T03:34:39Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Fortunately more men are realizing that [abuse of men](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/why-will-no-one-fund-male-domestic-abuse-charities/) is a vastly under reported and ignored problem. And I’ll think you’ll find [that](http://www.xyonline.net/sites/default/files/Kimmel,%20Gender%20symmetry%20in%20dom.pdf): In general, men are more aggressive than are women (for a summary of this research, see Kimmel, 2000). In fact, violence is the only behavioral variable for which there are intractable and overwhelmingly skewed results showing gender differences. …In their path-breaking work, The Psychology of Sex Differences, Maccoby and Jacklin (1974) found that violence exhibits the greatest gender variation; 20 years later, an analysis by Baron and Richardson (1994) found the same thing. So we would have to ask why women would hit men inside the house in roughly equal numbers but almost never commit violence toward men—or women—outside the home. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/736 "2016-01-15T03:39:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > fuck those dead women, right? That is what you say. No one except you is saying that. But more and more men and some women are realizing that [too many men](https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html) suffer both abuse and discrimination. Acknowledging male victims of female abusers is in no way taking away from female victims. I understand that female perpetrators of partner and child abuse will find any discussion of this topic deeply offensive – thus I sincerely apologize to [any woman](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3398118/Lesbian-couple-beat-one-woman-s-5-year-old-son-HAMMER-duct-taped-eyes-kicked-groin-bled-suffered-two-strokes.html) offended by my discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/737 "2016-01-15T03:47:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > That is what you say. No one except you is saying that. So what exactly are you saying? Be specific. > [@](#): > > But more and more men and some women are realizing that [too many men](https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html) suffer both abuse and discrimination. More women than men suffer abuse. Significantly more. And more of them die. Significantly more. But you have a point to make, so you don’t care about that. And hey, it’s bad that men are abused. But acting like it’s a bigger problem than abused women is _factually wrong_. > [@](#): > > Acknowledging male victims of female abusers is in no way taking away from female victims. Cool. So why are you bringing it up on a thread about feminism? > [@](#): > > I understand that female perpetrators of partner and child abuse will find any discussion of this topic deeply offensive – thus I sincerely apologize to [any woman](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3398118/Lesbian-couple-beat-one-woman-s-5-year-old-son-HAMMER-duct-taped-eyes-kicked-groin-bled-suffered-two-strokes.html) offended by my discourse. Are we giving examples of bad parenting? On Tuesday in Denver District Court the father of the four boys, 67-year-old Wayne Sperling, was sentenced to five years in prison for keeping his sons in a tiny Denver apartment covered in layers of cat and human feces. Decomposing animals were found near the squalid mattress the four boys shared. None of the boys — ages 2, 4, 5 and 6 at the time — could speak or recognize their names when they were removed from the apartment in September 2013. They didn’t know how to eat a sandwich or recognize an apple as food, said Deputy District Attorney Anita Drasan. Tell you what, you keep bringing up stories of abusive lesbian parents and I’ll keep bringing up stories of abusive fathers and we’ll see who runs out of stories first. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/738 "2016-01-15T18:30:37Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > But more and more men and some women are realizing that [too many men](https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html) suffer both abuse and discrimination. > > Acknowledging male victims of female abusers is in no way taking away from female victims. Being a Mathematics PhD, I know that you would never want to misrepresent data that is reported by [the CDC stud](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf)y which your linked article references, saying (in part) the following: > [@CDC Study: National IP and Sexual Violence Survey](#): > > For all types of violence examined > in this report, the majority of both > female and male victims had one > perpetrator. **Across all forms of > violence, the majority of female > victims reported that the perpetrators > were male**. > **Male rape victims > and male victims of non-contact > unwanted sexual experiences > reported predominantly male > perpetrators. Nearly half of male > stalking victims also reported > perpetration by a male. Male > victims of other forms of violence > reported predominantly female > perpetrators.** > [@CCitizen](#): > > I understand that female perpetrators of partner and child abuse will find any discussion of this topic deeply offensive – thus I sincerely apologize to [any woman](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3398118/Lesbian-couple-beat-one-woman-s-5-year-old-son-HAMMER-duct-taped-eyes-kicked-groin-bled-suffered-two-strokes.html) offended by my discourse. Why poison the well with introducing child abuse? Are you really so desperate to jack up your numbers? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/739 "2016-01-15T18:44:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Being a Mathematics PhD, I know that you would never want to misrepresent data I have seen the same argument many times since 1996. I do not know what percent of Intimate Partner Violence victims are male. Possibly among victims of Intimate Partner Violence men are not the majority but a significant minority. But male victims still do not deserve the [discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf) they suffer. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why poison the well with introducing child abuse? Are you really so desperate to jack up your numbers? It was a sincere apology to anyone offended by the fact that I am talking about male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/740 "2016-01-15T19:43:15Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have seen the same argument many times since 1996. I do not know what percent of Intimate Partner Violence victims are male. You should try reading the paper I linked to, which goes through the evidence. If you actually cared, that is. > [@](#): > > But male victims still do not deserve the [discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf) they suffer. Is that anything like the discrimination that women report when they report rape? Like, for example, having MRA types track down their identifying information and sending them death threats and calling them whores and gold-diggers? And, this discrimination that men suffer. Is it by other men, perhaps? Is it almost entirely by other men? Oh, and why is this topic relevant to a discussion of feminism? And, if you want to know what percentage of suffers of intimate violence are men, why haven’t you bothered to read the paper summarizing the evidence? So many questions… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=38)