# On Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801 "2015-11-06T14:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/741 "2016-01-15T20:01:18Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > It was a sincere apology to anyone offended by the fact that I am talking about male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. Please explain to me the thought process that started with “I should apologize to anyone offended by the fact that I am talking about male victims of Intimate Partner Violence,” and ended by linking to a story about to lesbian parents abusing their child. In all seriousness, I would like you to explain how that thought process worked. I’m really interested in understanding how you came to the conclusion that _linking to a story about to lesbian parents abusing their child_ would result in _a sincere apology to anyone offended by the fact that I am talking about male victims of Intimate Partner Violence_. Just go through the your thought process step-by-step, please. One logical conclusion to the next. Something like: [ol] [li]I decided that I should apologize for discussing male victims of intimate violence[/li][li]…[/li][li]And therefore of course I linked to a story about lesbian parents abusing their child.[/li][/ol] It’s the “…” that I’m really interested in. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/742 "2016-01-15T20:03:50Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have seen the same argument many times since 1996. I do not know what percent of Intimate Partner Violence victims are male. > > Possibly among victims of Intimate Partner Violence men are not the majority but a significant minority. But male victims still do not deserve the [discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf) they suffer. Indeed we have, CCitizen. You’ve cited this before and I responded to this before. May I remind you that the study itself reports the following: > [@From linked study above...](#): > > Limitations and Future Research > The limitations of this study need to be considered in > future research. First, we cannot assess the legitimacy of > the accounts and reports of abuse and helpseeking in this > study. Since the men were recruited via the Internet we > have no way to confirm the legitimacy of their reports. > Moreover, it is possible that some men, especially those > recruited through men’s advocacy groups, may have “an > axe to grind” and thus, reported false information. > [@CCitizen](#): > > It was a sincere apology to anyone offended by the fact that I am talking about male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. No-one is offended by your insistence that men are also victims of IPV. What’s offensive is that you chose an example of child abuse by some lesbians to illustrate your point. Nobody here is defending child abusers just because they happen to be women. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/743 "2016-01-15T20:37:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And, this discrimination that men suffer. Is it by other men, perhaps? > > Oh, and why is this topic relevant to a discussion of feminism? Men should be aware of hundreds of feminist ``scholarly" works which excuse and trivialize the abuse suffered by male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. Of course #NotAllFeminists excuse abuse of men, but men should know about these #NotAllFeminists. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And, if you want to know what percentage of suffers of intimate violence are men, why haven’t you bothered to read the paper summarizing the evidence? I have read many [studies](https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html) on the subject, and have no time for that biased paper. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/744 "2016-01-15T21:06:24Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Men should be aware of hundreds of feminist ``scholarly" works which excuse and trivialize the abuse suffered by male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. Of course #NotAllFeminists excuse abuse of men, but men should know about these #NotAllFeminists. That sounds bad. Link to some of these scholarly works, please. Also quantify them: how many hundreds? Are we talking two hundred? Also, percentage-wise, what percentage of feminists do you think trivialize the abuse of men? And provide some support for that number, please. > [@](#): > > I have read many [studies](https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-number-of-male-domestic-1284479771263030.html) on the subject, and have no time for that biased paper. So, you suspect that a peer-reviewed published journal article might be biased, so you go to a 1/2 page Yahoo News piece for your information instead? You do you, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/745 "2016-01-15T21:15:58Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Men should be aware of hundreds of feminist ``scholarly" works which excuse and trivialize the abuse suffered by male victims of Intimate Partner Violence. Of course #NotAllFeminists excuse abuse of men, but men should know about these #NotAllFeminists. Wait, are you using a “what’s trending” hashtag on popular social media site as your cite? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/746 "2016-01-22T18:51:26Z")
Bumping to provide an update to something that was discussed earlier on in the thread. Gregory Elliot was a Canadian man who was charged with criminal harrassment over a Twitter exchange with Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly. Today, [he was found not guilty](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/twitter-harassment-trial-verdict-1.3415112). I donated to his legal fund, so it’s probably not a surprise that I fully support the judges ruling on this or that I think it was the right call. Any other opinions on this verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/747 "2016-01-23T02:01:53Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > Bumping to provide an update to something that was discussed earlier on in the thread. Gregory Elliot was a Canadian man who was charged with criminal harrassment over a Twitter exchange with Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly. Today, [he was found not guilty](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/twitter-harassment-trial-verdict-1.3415112). I donated to his legal fund, so it’s probably not a surprise that I fully support the judges ruling on this or that I think it was the right call. > > Any other opinions on this verdict? It appeared to be a case of “lawfare.” Using the courts to harass your political opponents – a method which Scientology is also so fond of. I hate that kind of abusing of the court system; people who are found to be guilty of it should be harshly punished. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/748 "2016-01-23T02:15:29Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > Bumping to provide an update to something that was discussed earlier on in the thread. Gregory Elliot was a Canadian man who was charged with criminal harrassment over a Twitter exchange with Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly. Today, [he was found not guilty](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/twitter-harassment-trial-verdict-1.3415112). I donated to his legal fund, so it’s probably not a surprise that I fully support the judges ruling on this or that I think it was the right call. > > Any other opinions on this verdict? I’ve seen like five stories about this today and none of them show the actual tweets! Google is failing me here as well. What were the actual tweets like? What were the worst examples? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/749 "2016-01-23T19:51:41Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > Bumping to provide an update to something that was discussed earlier on in the thread. Gregory Elliot was a Canadian man who was charged with criminal harrassment over a Twitter exchange with Stephanie Guthrie and Heather Reilly. Today, [he was found not guilty](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/twitter-harassment-trial-verdict-1.3415112). I donated to his legal fund, so it’s probably not a surprise that I fully support the judges ruling on this or that I think it was the right call. > > Any other opinions on this verdict? The verdict sounds correct. But the verdict is simply about the facts. He was accused of harassment to the point of the victims fearing for their safety. They said he kept track of their whereabouts - essentially stalking them. The court said it didn’t happen. I don’t know how this relates to feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/750 "2016-01-23T19:55:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What were the actual tweets like? What were the worst examples? _Around August 12, Ms Guthrie testified, things became serious regarding Mr. Elliott, and she began to be fearful of him. But between the July 28 celebration of her and August 3, he hadn’t done anything except tweet about the article and she was not afraid when July ended_ [court doc](http://www.scribd.com/doc/296325188/2016oncj35) [The tweets Aug 13-\>](http://i.imgur.com/ndfQgG8.png) Just a couple of adult babies who can’t handle the internet, and tried to use the justice system to destroy a man’s life because they didn’t like him. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/751 "2016-01-23T21:10:49Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > _Around August 12, Ms Guthrie testified, things became serious regarding Mr. Elliott, and she began to be fearful of him. But between the July 28 celebration of her and August 3, he hadn’t done anything except tweet about the article and she was not afraid when July ended_ [court doc](http://www.scribd.com/doc/296325188/2016oncj35) > > [The tweets Aug 13-\>](http://i.imgur.com/ndfQgG8.png) > > Just a couple of adult babies who can’t handle the internet, and tried to use the justice system to destroy a man’s life because they didn’t like him. Again, what does this have to do with feminism? The women were feminists, yes, but anyone can be an “adult baby who can’t handle the internet.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/752 "2016-01-23T23:17:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Again, what does this have to do with feminism? I’m sure your answer is buried somewhere in the previous 16 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/753 "2016-01-27T21:50:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Again, what does this have to do with feminism? The women were feminists, yes, but [snip] You just answered your own question, albeit with a side of no true [del]Scotsman[/del] Feminist. I am very glad to see no one supporting these women, or arguing against the verdict. It truly warms my cold, misanthropic heart. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/754 "2016-01-28T03:12:07Z")
When you say “a side of no true feminist,” are you referring, perhaps, to the part where he said, “The women were feminists”? Because I don’t think you entirely understand the idiom, if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/755 "2016-01-28T12:02:33Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > You just answered your own question, albeit with a side of no true [del]Scotsman[/del] Feminist. . Absolute RUBBISH. A feminist dropped her coffee cop on the sidewalk. Therefore all feminists believe in littering? Try again. Just because this incident involved feminists doesn’t mean it has anything whatsoever to do with feminism of feminist beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/756 "2016-01-28T12:03:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When you say “a side of no true feminist,” are you referring, perhaps, to the part where he said, “The women were feminists”? > > Because I don’t think you entirely understand the idiom, if that’s the case. Yeah, that was weird too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/757 "2016-01-28T16:24:47Z")
Good Lord. I read through as much of that court decision as I could, and my main conclusion is that I loathe everyone involved in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/758 "2016-01-28T17:58:00Z")
Maybe I do misunderstand the idiom. Here’s where I’m coming from, [from RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) > [@Rationalwiki](#): > > The No True Scotsman (NTS) fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when; [snip] [3] Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group do indeed have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to enforce purity by redefining the group to exclude them. These women, who self-identified as feminists, did something that showed their undesirable characteristics. Therefore, they are not true feminists and their actions do not reflect the feminist movement. It’s shit because whenever feminists volunteer to work with victim advocacy groups and do other awesome things, that always seems to reflect what feminism is. It’s only when feminists do bad things that their actions do not reflect the movement. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > A feminist dropped her coffee cop on the sidewalk. Therefore all feminists believe in littering? No, if A feminist drops her cup, than A feminist is a litterbug. If several feminists drop their cups, then several feminists are litterbugs. Please don’t paint me with your extremist brush. I don’t say “All X are Y,” because that’s stupid and almost always wrong. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Try again. Just because this incident involved feminists doesn’t mean it has anything whatsoever to do with feminism of feminist beliefs. If you feel that feminism exists exclusively outside the actions of all its self-proclaimed followers, then I don’t see any common ground for discussion. I obviously disagree. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good Lord. I read through as much of that court decision as I could, and my main conclusion is that I loathe everyone involved in that case. I can’t disagree with that statement, no one ended up looked good in that case. I donated money mostly out of principle and because I despise lawfare (thanks Rune for that word, it fits perfectly), not because I entirely agree with Elliot’s politics. Anyhow, I’m done here. It appears Linus has left the boards, Jack is banned, and I have no interest in playing devil’s advocate to argue with the majority of the board on this subject. The only reason I bother is that it just kills me that MRA types and feminists could be so much more effective at achieving their goals with the help of the other group, but the rampant misogyny/misandry in both groups ensures it will never happen. IME, there is no space at the discussion table for moderates, the extremists on both sides are shouting out everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/759 "2016-01-28T18:20:44Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > Therefore, they are not true feminists and their actions do not reflect the feminist movement. Where did anyone say these women are not “true feminists?” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801/760 "2016-01-28T18:27:14Z")
> [@Mithrander](#): > > Anyhow, I’m done here. It appears Linus has left the boards, Jack is banned,… Jack was a verbose, pedantic bore, but I had no idea he was banned. For what offense? > [@Mithrander](#): > > …and I have no interest in playing devil’s advocate to argue with the majority of the board on this subject. FWIW, I found your arguments thought provoking. Thanks for that. > [@Mithrander](#): > > The only reason I bother is that it just kills me that MRA types and feminists could be so much more effective at achieving their goals with the help of the other group, but the rampant misogyny/misandry in both groups ensures it will never happen. IME, there is no space at the discussion table for moderates, the extremists on both sides are shouting out everyone else. Ain’t that always the way with everything… 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-feminism/736801.md?page=39)