# On God, His/Her/Its Nonexistence, and Bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240 "2005-04-26T20:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/101 "2005-04-28T12:20:01Z")
The problem is that “this discussion” might not strictly be about God but about paranormal phenomena, Bigfoot, black holes or any number of entities in which “You can’t prove a negative” appears with depressing regularity. Even in _this_ one, the unprovability is **nothing to do with it being a negative** - I could rephrase the statement such that the NOT was elsewhere or even _absent_, given certain choices of property P. Specifying a negative _at all_ is an utterly misleading fallacy - I’d suggest it was outright _ignorance_ rather than mere sloppiness. But each of us having different thresholds of “OK” is … OK. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/102 "2005-04-28T12:28:56Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Even in _this_ one, the unprovability is **nothing to do with it being a negative** - I could rephrase the statement such that the NOT was elsewhere or even _absent_, given certain choices of property P. You’re going to have to explain this a bit more closely, I’m afraid. “God doesn’t exist” sounds like a pretty clearcut negative no matter what properties you choose to imbue “god” with. I suppose you could rephrase it to something like “this universe is and always has been god-free”, but I don’t think that’s not what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/103 "2005-04-28T12:31:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I must have misunderstood your statement. > > what did you mean by any contradiction? A contradiction is a statement that is always false. For example, x != x is a contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/104 "2005-04-28T12:32:05Z")
Skip the “not” in that last sentence. Damn negatives, they sneak in everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/105 "2005-04-28T12:40:47Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re going to have to explain this a bit more closely, I’m afraid. “God doesn’t exist” sounds like a pretty clearcut negative no matter what properties you choose to imbue “god” with. > > I suppose you could rephrase it to something like “this universe is and always has been god-free”, but I don’t think that’s what you mean. “God exists outside space and time” is an unprovable positive. “An unobservable God exists” is an unprovable positive. “Gorillas don’t exist in this room” is a provable negative. “Gorillas don’t exist in this universe” is an unprovable negative. Yet again, the _properties and scope_ are relevant to which statements one can prove. The presence of a negative is not. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/106 "2005-04-28T12:49:56Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > “God exists outside space and time” is an unprovable positive. > “An unobservable God exists” is an unprovable positive. > “Gorillas don’t exist in this room” is a provable negative. > “Gorillas don’t exist in this universe” is an unprovable negative. > > Yet again, the _properties and scope_ are relevant to which statements one can prove. The presence of a negative is not. Point taken, conceded and painted a very nice shade of green. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/107 "2005-04-28T13:00:42Z")
Thanks, **PG**. Thanks also in that you’ve forced _me_ to construct my objection to “you can’t prove a negative” into as clear and direct a form as I can. I hope I may even have convinced _you_ to gently but firmly correct anyone who uses such a phrase on _other_ boards you might frequent: spread the meme! ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/108 "2005-04-28T13:07:44Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Thanks also in that you’ve forced _me_ to construct my objection to “you can’t prove a negative” into as clear and direct a form as I can. Well, that’s what it takes to get through my skull. > [@](#): > > I hope I may even have convinced _you_ to gently but firmly correct anyone who uses such a phrase on _other_ boards you might frequent: spread the meme! I would, but I’d be surprised to see that phrase on any of the other boards I frequent. Should it ever occur, rest assured that I’ll be springing into action. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/109 "2005-04-28T14:10:06Z")
> [@Lib](#): > > I wondered about that so much myself that I researched it for quite some time, and what I discovered was that all this crap — you can’t prove a negative, and so forth — originated on usenet. You know, I think this is an important enough point that it might warrant a Straight Dope column proper, with you as Guest Contributor giving a quick precis of your discoveries together with an explanation for why it’s bunkum, perhaps using examples from this very thread. I’d be happy to supply the original question (or are planted stooges like this frowned upon?) ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/110 "2005-04-28T14:51:44Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Point taken, conceded and painted a very nice shade of green. Maybe a nice shrubbery to go along with it? 😛 **matt** , I believe I understand your position - namely, that the creator’s only “fingerprints” might be the very physical laws we observe today. If that is true, then you’re right, there’s no way to answer the question one way or the other. However, I believe that those laws arise purely out of the properties of the fundamental entities populating the universe (spacetime, dark matter, dark energy, matter, energy, etc), in which case the creator’s contribution would be to assemble some configuration of those entities and start it going - leaving a fingerprint in terms of the initial configuration. If we find that and it turns out to be a configuration that spells out “Hello, people of the Universe,” then we’ll know that there was probably a creator. (ok, so a more realistic example is that it would just be very highly ordered). If the initial configuration is just a jumbled mess, then I think that would support the opposite conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/111 "2005-04-28T17:03:04Z")
And how do you propose to identify if things are ordered or jumbled? Since we have no idea what either of those would look like, you’re back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/112 "2005-04-28T18:34:56Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You know, I think this is an important enough point that it might warrant a Straight Dope column proper, with you as Guest Contributor giving a quick precis of your discoveries together with an explanation for why it’s bunkum, perhaps using examples from this very thread. I’d be happy to supply the original question (or are planted stooges like this frowned upon?) I’ve actually contributed before! 🙂 [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlevon.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlevon.html) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/113 "2005-04-28T20:23:07Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > May I request that we qualify statements like this more correctly. Very often on SDMB > someone will point out the worst of those who claim to believe in God and throw out a statement that seems to paint all believers with that brush. I’m sure you know that there is much diversity among believers. Many of us are not rabid. Chill out. I meant rabid as in “rabid following” for a rock star, for instance. It doesn’t mean they’re frothing at the mouth and carrying diseases or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/114 "2005-04-28T21:42:07Z")
**Telemark** , I’m just talking about different items being arranged in a finite volume. If we looked back and saw that the early universe had all the matter on one side and all the energy on the other, that’d be a very ordered configuration. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/115 "2005-04-29T01:13:58Z")
> [@Knowed Out](#): > > Chill out. I meant rabid as in “rabid following” for a rock star, for instance. It doesn’t mean they’re frothing at the mouth and carrying diseases or anything. Okay. And your statement doesn’t automaticaly include every follower. For the most part though, rabid carries negative conotations. It’s not a synonym to zealous. It’s means going to extremes sometimes violent. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/116 "2005-04-29T14:48:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Certainly there are aspects of belief in God that are social. It seems to me thats why people cling so hard to doctrine that doesn’t make any sense. {such as God wrote the Bible} They want to remain a part of their religous “family” so they justify things they don’t really unedrstand and say, well , I just accept that on faith. It’s hard for some to concieve that thousands of people holding a certain belief might be incorrect. Especially since the belief has been accepted for generations. I call that traditions instead of truth. > > You are correct that certain people and religions trade financially on God. I can’t agree with the “nothing more” There are thousands of individuals like myself who believe but don’t belong to any organized religion. No one is selling me anything. I choose to believe because of personnel experiences. My beliefs are my own and evolving. I follow no specific relgious discipline and I don’t believe any religion has it “right” They’re just trying to figure it out the same as me. Sorry it took me so long to respond. You stated that you believe, but don’t belong to any organized religion. What is it that you believe? If it’s the God/Jesus mythos espoused by Christianity, you’ve bought the product sold by the religion, even though you might not attend a church of the religion. However, if it’s something you dreamed up, that’s different. You might bow down to a flat rock in your back yard for all I know, and if that’s what you want to do, no problem. The problem begins when you try to get others to bow down to that rock as well. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/117 "2005-04-29T15:48:31Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > You stated that you believe, but don’t belong to any organized religion. What is it that you believe? If it’s the God/Jesus mythos espoused by Christianity, you’ve bought the product sold by the religion, even though you might not attend a church of the religion. And you are qualified to make that declaration because…? > [@](#): > > However, if it’s something you dreamed up, that’s different. You might bow down to a flat rock in your back yard for all I know, and if that’s what you want to do, no problem. The problem begins when you try to get others to bow down to that rock as well. For you perhaps. For me, there arises a problem when a man classifies me according to his own ignorant prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/118 "2005-04-30T13:34:21Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > You stated that you believe, but don’t belong to any organized religion. What is it that you believe? If it’s the God/Jesus mythos espoused by Christianity, you’ve bought the product sold by the religion, even though you might not attend a church of the religion. > > However, if it’s something you dreamed up, that’s different. You might bow down to a flat rock in your back yard for all I know, and if that’s what you want to do, no problem. The problem begins when you try to get others to bow down to that rock as well. Two things about the God/Jesus mythos. There is no “the.” Beliefs vary greatly as I’m sure you know. For some you may find evidence against said belief. For others there is little or no evidence for or against. In that case the term mythos is only your opinion and carries no more wieght than any one elses. I have respect and even reverence for a persons right to choose their own beliefs and their own path. There are reasonable and obvious limits. Our belliefs, religous, moral and otherwise direct our choices and what we contribute to our society. If a person believes something to be true and crucial to the welfare of his loved ones and society then there is a certain moral obligation to take a stand. I have to chuckle at a certain smugness from some non believers. There is no superiority in believeing or not believeing. There is the truth, and where seeking it leads us. You complain about others trying to impose their beliefs upon others and yet here you are, doing your own form of preaching. The proverbial pot, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/119 "2005-05-01T02:35:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And you are qualified to make that declaration because…? Because I have a functioning brain. > [@Liberal](#): > > For you perhaps. For me, there arises a problem when a man classifies me according to his own ignorant prejudices. Well, that would chap me off, too. Let me know if it happens and I’ll join you in grousing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/120 "2005-05-01T02:40:19Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Two things about the God/Jesus mythos. There is no “the.” Beliefs vary greatly as I’m sure you know. For some you may find evidence against said belief. For others there is little or no evidence for or against. In that case the term mythos is only your opinion and carries no more wieght than any one elses. > I have respect and even reverence for a persons right to choose their own beliefs and their own path. Thank you for arguing my point for me. My issue is when that person then turns around and sells his concept to others. Your beliefs are your beliefs if, and only if, you are the one who originates them. If your beliefs are based on someone else’s point of view, they are not original and you have bought the con. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > There are reasonable and obvious limits. Our belliefs, religous, moral and otherwise direct our choices and what we contribute to our society. If a person believes something to be true and crucial to the welfare of his loved ones and society then there is a certain moral obligation to take a stand. > I have to chuckle at a certain smugness from some non believers. There is no superiority in believeing or not believeing. There is the truth, and where seeking it leads us. You complain about others trying to impose their beliefs upon others and yet here you are, doing your own form of preaching. The proverbial pot, don’t you think? Not in the slightest. Let me quote someone on this very point: \*If a person believes something to be true and crucial to the welfare of his loved ones and society then there is a certain moral obligation to take a stand. \* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240.md?page=7)