# On God, His/Her/Its Nonexistence, and Bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240 "2005-04-26T20:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/121 "2005-05-01T10:49:30Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Thank you for arguing my point for me. My issue is when that person then turns around and sells his concept to others. Your beliefs are your beliefs if, and only if, you are the one who originates them. If your beliefs are based on someone else’s point of view, they are not original and you have bought the con. > > Not in the slightest. Let me quote someone on this very point: \*If a person believes something to be true and crucial to the welfare of his loved ones and society then there is a certain moral obligation to take a stand. \* This is an interesting discussion,as I understand it the word “God” has different meanings to different people. If the word God is “A Being” there will never be any proof…however; if God is “being” (all of what exists) then there is proof. Before a being can exist there has to be a place first in which to exist. Go I my mind is what exists, and Moses asked, “Who are you”? God is quoted as saying I am what is. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/122 "2005-05-01T10:51:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > This is an interesting discussion,as I understand it the word “God” has different meanings to different people. If the word God is “A Being” there will never be any proof…however; if God is “being” (all of what exists) then there is proof. Before a being can exist there has to be a place first in which to exist. Go I my mind is what exists, and Moses asked, “Who are you”? God is quoted as saying I am what is. > > Monavis Forgive the typos ,Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/123 "2005-05-01T13:45:18Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > …however; if God is “being” (all of what exists) then there is proof. Before a being can exist there has to be a place first in which to exist. Go I my mind is what exists, and Moses asked, “Who are you”? God is quoted as saying I am what is. So if we believe that what is, is, then we believe in God? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/124 "2005-05-01T17:24:54Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > **SentientMeat** , I remember reading that post when that thread got started and agreeing with just about everything you said. My only addition would be to say that if the supernatural ever **did** enter the natural realm, it would have to obey its laws. “Yes,” you might say, “but being in Spain doesn’t mean I’m Spanish!” True, but being in Spain does mean you obey Spanish law. > > It is my personal contention (and I will admit to being a bit of a positivist here) that if there is something we would call supernatural, it would have to be that which is _defined_ as being beyond the purview of reason, and thus not subject to observation by controlled tests. That would mean we could never conclusively point to any evidence and say “that’s the supernatural,” so as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t exist. There always the idea that the supernatural is merely the natural that we don’t understand yet and haven’t found a way to measure. MAny of the things we accept today would seem supernatural only a few generations ago. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/125 "2005-05-01T17:43:34Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > This is an interesting discussion,as I understand it the word “God” has different meanings to different people. If the word God is “A Being” there will never be any proof…however; if God is “being” (all of what exists) then there is proof. Before a being can exist there has to be a place first in which to exist. Go I my mind is what exists, and Moses asked, “Who are you”? God is quoted as saying I am what is. > > Monavis Probably as many different meanings as there are people. A book I’ve been reading suggests that God is indeed all of what exists. The only reality. The Universe as we know it is the eqivilent to a dream or a mirage created by the mind. Created by us not God. Like the old chinese fabel of the the man who dreamed he was a butterfly. If this is the dream then we won’t know until we choose to wake up. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/126 "2005-05-01T19:59:24Z")
**Dan** , you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that I’m a character in your dream. G. E. Moore had a proof of the existence of the external world. He would hold up his right hand, look at it, show it to the audience, and say “This is my right hand”. Same with the left. That was it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/127 "2005-05-01T20:04:40Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Clothahump](#): > > Thank you for arguing my point for me. My issue is when that person then turns around and sells his concept to others. Yes I know. And my point is that you are doing exactly the thing you rail against. You assume your beliefs are the “correct ones” and preach against those who don’t agree with you. > [@](#): > > Your beliefs are your beliefs if, and only if, you are the one who originates them. If your beliefs are based on someone else’s point of view, they are not original and you have bought the con. Simply false. Our beliefs are a product of input from various sources. If I happen to agree with a point someone is making or I am influenced by certain sources, that doesn’t mean I’m buying a con. Are we supposed to come up with unique beliefs devoid of any outside input. Your own beliefs have come from somewhere. Personnel experience, logic, reason, and a little soul searching helps us sift through the input and decide what we will embrace or discard. It is true that some people are more succeptable to outside influence than others. > [@](#): > > Not in the slightest. Let me quote someone on this very point: \*If a person believes something to be true and crucial to the welfare of his loved ones and society then there is a certain moral obligation to take a stand. \* This might be considered a clever answer if it related to my point. If you are taking a stand according to your beliefs great. I support that. That doesn’t negate the fact that you are preaching what you assume to be the “truth” while complaining about others doing the same thing. That is the pot calling the kettle black. If you understand and support their right to live according to thier beliefs {which includes their belief in shareing their “truth” with others} while disagreeing and asserting your own then there is no hypocracy. When your big complaint aboout them is that they are doing something that you yourself are doing, that is hypocracy. There is a subtle ridicule in your posts when refering to people with spiritual beliefs . As I said there is no superiority in believeing or not believeing. Each person should be true to themselves. We should also be aware that our beliefs are evolving and give equal consideration to the many things we **don’t** know. There seems to be some idea that religous beliefs are in a different catagory than moral beliefs of cultural and philosophical beliefs. There’s an attitude of it being impolite or rude to question someones religous beliefs. The freedom of worship and all that. For me they are all in the same catagory. When our beliefs , whatever they are, reach into the lives of others then they are elligible to be questioned or challenged. Thats how we grow. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/128 "2005-05-01T20:39:19Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > > > **Dan** , you’re going to have a hard time convincing me that I’m a character in your dream. > > Well I’m not trying to convince anyone. It’s just an interesting idea. > Thanks for useing Dan by the way. Some have refered to me as Cosmo…there’s an S people. Its Cosmos…Dan not Cosmo…Sdan > > G. E. Moore had a proof of the existence of the external world. He would hold up his right hand, look at it, show it to the audience, and say “This is my right hand”. Same with the left. That was it. Cute, and yet if he dreamed he was at a seminar and did that, would that be reality if he didn’t know he was dreaming? If he dreamed he asked everyone at the seminar if it was reality and they all said yes this is reality, would that make it so? He wouldn’t know the difference until he woke up. I’m not saying I’m convinced, but it is an intesting concept and preferable to me over God created everything and now we’d better tow the mark or he will punish us. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/129 "2005-05-01T21:20:11Z")
> [@Dan](#): > > Cute, and yet if he dreamed he was at a seminar and did that, would that be reality if he didn’t know he was dreaming? It would **not** prove to Moore that he was not dreaming. It would demonstrate that he could not **argue** to the students that he was dreaming. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/130 "2005-05-01T21:48:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Thank you for arguing my point for me. My issue is when that person then turns around and sells his concept to others. Your beliefs are your beliefs if, and only if, you are the one who originates them. If your beliefs are based on someone else’s point of view, they are not original and you have bought the con. Did you think you were the first atheist? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/131 "2005-05-01T22:22:19Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > It would **not** prove to Moore that he was not dreaming. It would demonstrate that he could not **argue** to the students that he was dreaming. I don’t get your point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/132 "2005-05-01T22:23:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Did you think you were the first atheist? the very bestest one too I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/133 "2005-05-02T00:06:14Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t get your point. If I told you that you were a figment of my imagination, would you believe me? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/134 "2005-05-02T00:56:53Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > If I told you that you were a figment of my imagination, would you believe me? and I still don’t get your point. If we’re in a dream agreeing that we’re not in a dream. Is it still a dream? The point is we may be and not know it. It’s one of those unproveable things. You are free to ridcule the idea. I dreamed I was talking to someone about it last night and they ridiculed it. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/135 "2005-05-02T01:13:00Z")
So **Dan** , answer the question, and we’ll continue. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/136 "2005-05-02T01:23:40Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > So **Dan** , answer the question, and we’ll continue. please note the “nope” in the title of my previous response. If you said I was a figment of your imagination I wouldn’t believe you. please continue. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/137 "2005-05-02T01:38:47Z")
**Dan** , I love this! An argument between two solipsists. Surrealism central. Sorry, I missed the “nope”. Solipsism is logically irrefutable. But whose dream are we in, mine or yours? To be settled only by a duel – chose your weapons, sir! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/138 "2005-05-02T02:49:17Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > **Dan** , I love this! An argument between two solipsists. Surrealism central. Sorry, I missed the “nope”. Solipsism is logically irrefutable. But whose dream are we in, mine or yours? To be settled only by a duel – chose your weapons, sir! Well Hoo, I’m not familiar with the term So I looked it up. From a brief reading I don’t think I’m talking about solipsism. I won’t be able to explain it well because I’m still studying the concept. It’s basicly this. God is the only reality. We are a part of that reality. We created the universe when we chose to believe we are seperate from God. That is the meaning of the truth will set you free. Solipsism seems egocentric. My perceptions are the only ones that matter. What I’m talking about is accpeting the fact that my perceptions are illusions and trying to lose those illusions. Its also that I believe you are a much a part of God as I am. “Whatever you do unto the least of these” It’s almost as if we are cells in the same body, each believeing we are a seperate body. That would make us cellmates I suppose Ha! I slay me. Each of us percieves our individuality differently. Each of is sheds our illusions at a our own rate according to our own experience and choice. Pardon my clumsy and meager explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/139 "2005-05-02T03:14:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well Hoo,. My best friends call me “who?”. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Pardon my clumsy and meager explanation. Same to you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240/140 "2005-05-02T04:31:54Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > My best friends call me “who?” funny > [@](#): > > .Same to you. What explanation are you refering to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-god-his-her-its-nonexistence-and-bullshit/301240.md?page=8)