# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/181 "2012-04-11T00:22:34Z")
This thread is beginning to make a sharp turn into **Fred13** country… ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/182 "2012-04-11T00:40:37Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > This thread is beginning to make a sharp turn into **Fred13** country… Beginning? With that last post he accelerated into turn 3 and is about to catch **Fred13** in the _Unsubstantiated Bullshit 500_! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/183 "2012-04-11T01:08:56Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > OK. The vast majority of Christians in America, and a supermajority so large as to make any other viewpoints basically irrelevant in the rest of the world, spend most of their time doing things like working to pass laws against the existence of homosexuals and stoning witches. I know you feel really great about being in the elite 1% that have figured out The Real Christianity; what does that get me when the 99% who are obviously doing it wrong show up at my door? No, the moderately large and noisy miinority of _conservative evangelical_ Christians do szome of this, and the Republican Party (in particular, though political pandering is not limited to them) and supposedly ‘fair, balanced’ media coverage give them a voice all out of proportion to their real strength. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/184 "2012-04-11T02:52:53Z")
To use homosexuality as a convenient example: The Catholics are the largest group of Christians in America, followed by the Baptists, the Methodists, the Mormons, and the Pentecostals. The _least_ virulent of those churches on the anti-gay front are the Methodists, whose official position nonetheless remains clearly anti-marriage equality and anti-the inclusion of homosexuals on an equal basis within their own church as priests and so on (though neither position is without significant dissent within that church, to be clear). The liberal Christian is perhaps the greatest contemporary exemplar of Pauline Kael’s famous “everybody _I_ know voted for McGovern, so how did Nixon win?” mindset. Christians whose theology revolves around “no boys kissing” are not a “noisy minority,” they are the numerical supermajority even in the United States and have never been anywhere close to losing this position. The “hippie Jesus” school is not and never has been the norm no matter how much you insist that 99.99999% of Christians throughout history were fake Christians who don’t count. In other countries where Christianity has political influence, even the much-vaunted “tolerance” of homosexuals is not even a position that exists. Christianity, worldwide, means Catholicism and the equivalent of the snake-handling churches in Africa, and there’s no filter on it for the niceties of American centrism. The idea that anti-gay [or anti-woman, or inclined to believe that one’s child needs an exorcism, or anti-mental health care] Christians are anywhere CLOSE to being a “noisy minority” as opposed to 90% and more of the religion is pure “the world is the way I wish it was!” fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/185 "2012-04-11T04:57:58Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > OK. The vast majority of Christians in America, and a supermajority so large as to make any other viewpoints basically irrelevant in the rest of the world, spend most of their time doing things like working to pass laws against the existence of homosexuals and stoning witches. I’d imagine the vast majority of Christians in America spend most of their time doing things like going to work, sleeping, and watching TV. That’s true of most of the Christians I know, at least. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/186 "2012-04-11T05:52:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > OK. The vast majority of Christians in America, and a supermajority so large as to make any other viewpoints basically irrelevant in the rest of the world, spend most of their time doing things like working to pass laws against the existence of homosexuals and stoning witches. I certainly don’t spend most of my time stoning witches. It takes up about 15% of my time, tops. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/187 "2012-04-11T06:02:49Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > If you are loving someone, it literally does not matter if they are a sinner or not. Of course it matters; people who think you are a sinner will work to punish or “reform” you. If they “love” you in the Christan sense, that just means they say that “we’re really sorry that we _have_ to do this, but it’s for your own good” before they commence the beatings or whatever. Christians have always talked about how they loved the people they imprisoned, enslaved, tortured and murdered for their god. I’d far prefer Christian indifference to Christan love; the latter is indistinguishable from malice. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/188 "2012-04-11T08:02:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I think the OP has a reasonable point, perhaps inelegantly phrased. While “we tolerate you just like we tolerate every other manner of deviant” is, I suppose, a degree of improvement over “die, faggots,” it’s still a condescending little demi-step toward what the norm \*ought \*to be, which is “it’s not our business to ‘tolerate’ you at all because there’s nothing wrong with you.” > > At least I think that’s what he’s getting at. > [@Miller](#): > > He also includes “our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers,” with criminals. From this, do you deduce that he thinks there is something wrong with being an ex-lover? Do you think he’s trying to draw an moral equivalence between being an ex-lover, and being a criminal? 1. Firstly the OP never linked to the original essay/glurg. Here it is: [Birch Family Services: Empowering People. Building Futures.](http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html) FTR, it makes my skin crawl. Regardless, I’d like to amplify Miller’s point. > [@Glurgy essay](#): > > You see, I live in this community too. And I’ve heard the hate. I’ve heard the disgust. I’ve heard the disdain. I’ve heard the gossip. I’ve heard the distrust. I’ve heard the anger. I’ve heard it all, and I’ve heard it tucked and disguised neatly beneath a wrapper of self-righteousness and a blanket of “caring” or “religious” words. I’ve heard it more times than I care to number. > > About gay people. > > About people who dress differently. > > About people who act differently. > > About fat people. > > About people with drug addictions. > > About people who smoke. > > About people with addictions to alcohol. > > About people with eating disorders. > > About people who fall away from their faiths. > > About people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion. > > About people who have non-traditional piercings. > > About people who just look at you or me the wrong way. Placing “Gay” near “People who dress/act differently”, doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. If anything it’s the fat people who might get exercised about being placed next to “Drug addictions” – but somebody had to be put there right? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > … And if you look at a gay man giving his husband a peck on the cheek and think “ick!” you’re a bigot and should be ashamed of yourself. Well I think, “Ick!” (nonverbally anyway) but I take exception at being called a bigot. I’m not going to apologize for thought crimes, especially those propped by pronounced, borderline traumatic and near-universal incidents from the youth of my cohort. What I don’t feel is contempt and decency implies that I don’t create unnecessary problems or challenges for others. Which is to say I try not to be a dick about it. > [@gamerunknown](#): > > Oh and when I was younger I used to get “You’re not a Christian, you’re a Catholic”, “Fenian bastard” and (once) “Papist”. There is only Christian cohesion against a common enemy. As soon as it comes down to actual dogma, I’d say most Christians hold that marginally different sects are still going to end up in hell. Based upon the Christian sect that I grew up in, I’d say that theology is nuts. > [@Polycarp](#): > > No, the moderately large and noisy minority of _conservative evangelical_ Christians do some of this, and the Republican Party (in particular, though political pandering is not limited to them) and supposedly ‘fair, balanced’ media coverage give them a voice all out of proportion to their real strength. Hoo-boy Poly: I’m close to giving up on Christianity. Once a slice of it advanced the moral boundary – I’m thinking of abolitionism and the civil rights movement. Now fast forward to the 2009 health care debate. Here’s an argument that I almost never heard: Jesus came to earth as a healer. Now he was referring to sin when he said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” But when the mostly healthy are turned down for insurance because of a genetic disorder or when the premium paying customer falls ill and has her policy yanked away because of today’s cancer and yesterday’s acne, perhaps some of Jesus’ expressed sentiments might be judiciously applied. Ok, ok: I am no preacher. Still, I’d say the basis in the Gospels for curbing rescission and addressing pre-existing conditions seems a lot stronger than the wackadoodle abortion objections of the debate. Private insurance companies had covered abortion services for years without complaint after all. Now admittedly I wasn’t surprised that there would be an abortion brou-ha-ha: I even anticipated it. But the deafening silence of the moral community on the subject of -you know- the poor and the sick was disturbing. Where were the mainline Christians when this Great Issue of the Day was debated? Why didn’t anyone even say offhand, “Of course we all want to aid the sick…”? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/189 "2012-04-11T13:19:19Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Where were the mainline Christians when this Great Issue of the Day was debated? Why didn’t anyone even say offhand, “Of course we all want to aid the sick…”? I had to recheck the username on this post after that one. **MfM** , does it disturb you at all that your question is of exactly the same form and intelligence as these other questions you may have heard: After 9/11: “Why don’t so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims condemn terrorism?” On internet political debates: “Why don’t liberals mind it when their own politicians lie and cheat?” After Trayvon Martin’s shooting / George Zimmerman’s non-arrest: “Why aren’t black people concerned about _black on black_ killings?” The answer to your question is just as obvious as the answers to the other questions. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/190 "2012-04-11T13:29:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If anything it’s the fat people who might get exercised I see what you did there! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/191 "2012-04-11T15:43:32Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Where were the mainline Christians when this Great Issue of the Day was debated? Why didn’t anyone even say offhand, “Of course we all want to aid the sick…”? They were [here](http://scg-wakeupcall.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-and-episcopal-church.html): > [@](#): > > - FINAL VERSION - Concurred Resolution: D048 > Title: Adoption of a “Single Payer” Universal Health Care Program > Topic:Health Care Committee: 09 - National and International Concerns > House of Initial Action: Deputies > Proposer: The Rev. Gary Commins > > Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring, That the 76th Convention of the Episcopal Church urge passage of federal legislation establishing a “single payer” universal health care program which would provide health care coverage for all of the people of the United States; and be it further > > Resolved, That the General Convention direct the Office of Government Relations to assess, negotiate, and deliberate the range of proposed federal health care policy options in the effort to reach the goal of universal health care coverage, and to pursue short-term, incremental, innovative, and creative approaches to universal health care until a “single payer” universal health care program is established; and be it further > > Resolved, That the Episcopal Church shall work with other people of good will to finally and concretely realize the goal of universal health care coverage; and be it further > > Resolved, That church members and the Office of Government Relations communicate the position of the Episcopal Church on this issue to the President and Members of Congress, and advocate passage of legislation consistent with this resolution. and [here](http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=4&mid=976): > [@](#): > > We therefore seek legislation that incorporates the following principles: > > Principle 1 > > We seek a national health-care plan that serves and is sensitive to the diversity of all people in the United States and its territories. > > Principle 2 > > We seek a national health-care plan that will provide comprehensive benefits to everyone, including preventive services, health promotion, primary and acute care, mental-health care, and extended care. > > Principle 3 > > We seek a national health-care plan with an equitable and efficient financing system drawn from the broadest possible resource base. > > Principle 4 > > We seek a national health-care plan that provides services based on equity, efficiency, and quality, with payments to providers that are equitable, cost-efficient, and easy to administer and understand. and [here](http://sojo.net/blogs/2009/08/03/health-care-human-right): > [@](#): > > Happily, we have come to the place in the national discourse where almost no one holds the position that we ought to do nothing to improve health care. The questions are: What ought those changes be? How do we pay for the changes? > > The simple truth is that we will have to pay more taxes. The wealthiest of us ought to pay more, and all of us should pay taxes on sugar-filled drinks and junk food. Health care is a right, but it, as all rights, comes with responsibilities. We are all responsible for eating right and getting exercise and rest. We ought to practice spiritual disciplines that help relieve stress and learn nonviolent conflict resolution. Violence is a health care issue. Healthier individuals will make for a healthier society. And many other places. But like Polycarp said, those voices get drowned out, ignored, or dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/192 "2012-04-11T17:57:11Z")
Billy beats up “faggots” at his high school. Bob won’t rent an apartment in his building to a gay couple. Mary sends her teenage daughter to a camp who’s mission is to “repair” gay teens using bullying and coercion. Steve tells his fellow Christians that gay people are children of God, and that the Christian thing to do is to love them, even if you find them odd or distasteful. Steve is the one who gets pitted. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/193 "2012-04-12T02:21:37Z")
Between Jesus and Buddha, who do you think was smarter? I mean, in terms of avoiding crucifixion. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/194 "2012-04-12T03:40:24Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I had to recheck the username on this post after that one. > > **MfM** , does it disturb you at all that your question is of exactly the same form and intelligence as these other questions you may have heard: > > After 9/11: “Why don’t so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims condemn terrorism?” > On internet political debates: “Why don’t liberals mind it when their own politicians lie and cheat?” > After Trayvon Martin’s shooting / George Zimmerman’s non-arrest: “Why aren’t black people concerned about _black on black_ killings?” > > The answer to your question is just as obvious as the answers to the other questions. I think the side of this conversation saying that it’s OK to be a homophobe would want to avoid the spurious racism analogies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/195 "2012-04-12T04:45:54Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Billy beats up “faggots” at his high school. > > Bob won’t rent an apartment in his building to a gay couple. > > Mary sends her teenage daughter to a camp who’s mission is to “repair” gay teens using bullying and coercion. > > Steve tells his fellow Christians that gay people are children of God, and that the Christian thing to do is to love them, even if you find them odd or distasteful. > > Steve is the one who gets pitted. Because he’s patronizing and probably hypocritical and does the same things as the others, just with more speeches about how he’s doing it out of love. You think Mary _doesn’t_ tell her kid that she’s doing it out of love as she has her sent off to be starved and beaten? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/196 "2012-04-12T05:07:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Billy beats up “faggots” at his high school. > > Bob won’t rent an apartment in his building to a gay couple. > > Mary sends her teenage daughter to a camp who’s mission is to “repair” gay teens using bullying and coercion. > > Steve tells his fellow Christians that gay people are children of God, and that the Christian thing to do is to love them, even if you find them odd or distasteful. > > Steve is the one who gets pitted. Well, yes. The whole attitude of “JEEEEZ, i’m not actually stabbing you in the face anymore, what else do you fucking faggots WANT?” is indeed the problem I am addressing here. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/197 "2012-04-12T06:54:17Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > **MfM** , does it disturb you at all that your question is of exactly the same form and intelligence as these other questions you may have heard: > > After 9/11: “Why don’t so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims condemn terrorism?” > On internet political debates: “Why don’t liberals mind it when their own politicians lie and cheat?” > After Trayvon Martin’s shooting / George Zimmerman’s non-arrest: “Why aren’t black people concerned about _black on black_ killings?” Er, I don’t think #2 is the same as #1 and #3. And contrast all 3 to my argument: I said there’s a long tradition of Christians pushing the moral boundary. That tradition, so I argued, seems to have ceased. Your examples can be translated as "Why don’t you guys emphasize what _I_ want to emphasize? But plenty of Christians should like universal health care: as I noted, Jesus’ healing characteristics are a core part of the doctrine. I came up with an hypothesis though. Perhaps those attempting moral suasion, as opposed to policy analysis, have a channel problem: they can realistically move the ball on only one issue at a time. Moreover, the process drags on for years. Health care reform is a terrible match in this respect, as it is complicated, empirically intensive _and in the past has come up about once every 20 years_. Christian reformers are better at the long slogs. My guess is that the current Xtian reformer issue is… wait for it… gay rights. Now that’s a tough one as the Bible isn’t especially gay friendly. Luckily blatantly homophobic Christians also have scriptural problems as Jesus says not a word against homosexuality, though he enjoins boatloads of cutting language against sanctimonious pricks. Anyway, examples include the report on homosexuality by the Presbyterian Church USA during the 1990s and various [United Church of Christ advertisements](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1u1v7hAtY). **Skammer** : thanks for the links. I see 2 resolutions, which is nice but only _prerequisite_ for political engagement. Gary Bauer is 7 steps ahead of that. The 3rd link to Sojourners is a little different since a decent magazine will have some influence. I haven’t seen it for years though. I guess I’m out of the loop though: [their wikipedia piece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojourners_Magazine) documents that they were highly engaged with health care reform, distributing information packets to pastors and organizing meetings with senators and representatives. Woops. So much for my hypothesis. Mainline Christians certainly have a branding problem though, as Evangelical Christian Conservatives have taken over the marketing term: Christian media. See: [How Did Evangelicals Hijack the Word “Christian”?](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/how-did-evanglicals-hijack-word-christian) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/198 "2012-04-12T09:33:28Z")
> [@Condescending Robot](#): > > In other countries where Christianity has political influence, even the much-vaunted “tolerance” of homosexuals is not even a position that exists. Well, the Anglican Church has a minor influence on politics in the UK and they’re quite tolerant of homosexuality. Becoming increasingly so, actually. Denmark also has a state Church and they were the first country in the world to recognise same-sex unions. On the other hand, there are countries like Uganda, where bigotry is rooted in religious sentiments. Also, pronouncements from the Vatican now mirror in some cases the language used in the OP. > [@Vatican](#): > > Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter Also interesting on the [same page](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html): > [@Vatican](#): > > According to the constant Tradition of the Church, only a baptized person of the male sex validly receives sacred Ordination. By means of the Sacrament of Orders, the Holy Spirit configures the candidate to Jesus Christ in a new and specific way: the priest, in fact, sacramentally represents Christ, the head, shepherd and spouse of the Church. It seems strange to me that the average male, perhaps even a person with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” could be transfigured sacramentally into the person of Christ, yet no amount of piety could accomplish the same thing for an individual with a less stumpy 46th chromosome. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/199 "2012-04-12T09:46:56Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I think the side of this conversation saying that it’s OK to be a homophobe would want to avoid the spurious racism analogies. Which side of the conversation is that again? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/200 "2012-04-12T11:40:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Which side of the conversation is that again? The side that thinks it’s wrong to criticize people who sugarcoat their homophobia with empty platitudes about how they love the people they are persecuting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=11)