# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/201 "2012-04-12T11:50:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The side that thinks it’s wrong to criticize people who sugarcoat their homophobia with empty platitudes about how they love the people they are persecuting. Oh, yeah, **them**. I jusst figured from the way you’ve been describing them that they were trying out for the Ray Bolger role in summer stock revivals of _The Wizard of Oz_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/202 "2012-04-12T13:55:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Er, I don’t think #2 is the same as #1 and #3. And contrast all 3 to my argument: I said there’s a long tradition of Christians pushing the moral boundary. That tradition, so I argued, seems to have ceased. I’ll grant you the second question is different in degree, but it is, as I claimed, of the same form. All of the questions are _petitio principii_ arguments which assume the hypocrisy of the subject groups in order to show that that those groups are hypocritical. Your argument does this as well. You’ve assumed the Christian tradition of ministry to the needs of the poor has ceased (or lessened) because it “seems to” have done so. This, to me, seems like the same argument as those I listed. If you never go into madrasas or interact with Muslims, it’s easy to see a disregard for terrorism or an acceptance of religiously motivated violence if you’re inclined to look for evil in that religion. (For the offenderati among us: I’m not accusing **Measure for Measure** of this inclination.) If you don’t pay attention to black political actions, it’s easy to miss the marches, sermons and educational efforts of black leaders targeting violence, drug use and other problems experienced by poor and minority communities, especially if you’re inclined toward white persecution complex. (Not accusing **Measure for Measure** of racism.) And if you pay attention only to those religiously based lobbying efforts which get deep cover by the news media, it’s easy to see a Christian emphasis on homophobic and antichoice legislation, and a shift away from core doctrinal concerns, because you’re only seeing the noisy conservative evangelical groups who exploit existing fear and loathing to gain political power. You may _feel_ as if mainstream Christian concerns aren’t being translated into serious political activism, but you seem to be basing this on shallow and arbitrary criteria. -That their efforts aren’t as visible as those of the demagogic religious right is no indication that their efforts are fewer or less enthusiastic. The same association of Catholic bishops now publicly and wrongheadedly whinging about contraception and “abortifacients” in mandated health plans have been steadily lobbying for universal health care in the US for at least the last thirty years, and have been at least as effective in their efforts as any particular politicians (up until our current President). > [@](#): > > I came up with an hypothesis though. Perhaps those attempting moral suasion, as opposed to policy analysis, have a channel problem: they can realistically move the ball on only one issue at a time. But your charge is that mainstream Christians have _moved away_ from core doctrinal concerns, not that their effectiveness is necessarily limited. Your hypothesis explains the latter without supporting or illustrating the former. > [@](#): > > Mainline Christians certainly have a branding problem though, as Evangelical Christian Conservatives have taken over the marketing term: Christian media. See: [How Did Evangelicals Hijack the Word “Christian”?](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/how-did-evanglicals-hijack-word-christian) Indeed. And they are aided at every turn by purists who reject attempts within the Christian community to reclaim the brand, or even to espouse basic tenets of humility, care and fellowship. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/203 "2012-04-12T13:58:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The side that thinks it’s wrong to criticize people who sugarcoat their homophobia with empty platitudes about how they love the people they are persecuting. So you can show us how the guy providing the platitudes is hypocritically persecuting gays on the side, right? ETA: I mean, not in your imagination, or because you ‘know what he really thinks,’ but actual evidence that the target of this pit thread is a homophobe. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/204 "2012-04-12T15:08:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because he’s patronizing and probably hypocritical and does the same things as the others, just with more speeches about how he’s doing it out of love. You think Mary _doesn’t_ tell her kid that she’s doing it out of love as she has her sent off to be starved and beaten? > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Well, yes. The whole attitude of “JEEEEZ, i’m not actually stabbing you in the face anymore, what else do you fucking faggots WANT?” is indeed the problem I am addressing here. Whatever. Enjoy your recreational outrage over a piece of harmless glurge. In fact I’ll join you in a good old growl. On 3: one…two…three, “GRRRR!ARRGH!” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/205 "2012-04-12T15:15:28Z")
[Some loving, tolerant christians in action here.](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/12/religious-groups-respond-to-stonewall-with-ex-gay-get-over-it-london-bus-adverts/) Bunch of cunts. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/206 "2012-04-12T15:50:37Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > So you can show us how the guy providing the platitudes is hypocritically persecuting gays on the side, right? > > ETA: I mean, not in your imagination, or because you ‘know what he really thinks,’ but actual evidence that the target of this pit thread is a homophobe. Der Trihs…how DOES he freaking think? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/207 "2012-04-12T19:09:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [Some loving, tolerant christians in action here.](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/12/religious-groups-respond-to-stonewall-with-ex-gay-get-over-it-london-bus-adverts/) > > Bunch of cunts. A small minority. Not The Real Christians. Why are you censoring someone by disagreeing with them, you fascist? You should give them a medal for not hitting you in the head with a shovel. You sound abrasive so I’m going to side with delusional psychotics to teach you a lesson. Prove to me that this is anti-gay. Did I about cover it? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/208 "2012-04-12T19:19:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Der Trihs…how DOES he freaking think? It’s a miracle! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/209 "2012-04-12T19:57:11Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > A small minority. Not The Real Christians. Why are you censoring someone by disagreeing with them, you fascist? You should give them a medal for not hitting you in the head with a shovel. You sound abrasive so I’m going to side with delusional psychotics to teach you a lesson. Prove to me that this is anti-gay. > > Did I about cover it? Your message to us is: There are assholes in this world who will use their opinion of The Way Things Ought To Be Run to condemn you for loving whom you feel led to love, even if you personally have never done anything to them, to conflate you and people like you with a group of clear sociopathis. My message tp you is: Stop being one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/210 "2012-04-12T19:58:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s a miracle! Like magnets! Or the tides! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/211 "2012-04-12T20:01:27Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > A small minority. Not The Real Christians. Why are you censoring someone by disagreeing with them, you fascist? You should give them a medal for not hitting you in the head with a shovel. You sound abrasive so I’m going to side with delusional psychotics to teach you a lesson. Prove to me that this is anti-gay. > > Did I about cover it? You are a remarkably stupid person. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/212 "2012-04-12T21:51:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [Some loving, tolerant christians in action here.](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/12/religious-groups-respond-to-stonewall-with-ex-gay-get-over-it-london-bus-adverts/) > > Bunch of cunts. Nobody is arguing that those people do not exist, or are not assholes. I won’t even bother denying they are Christians (as much as I would like to). But can you understand that they do not represent all Christians any more than al Queda represents all Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/213 "2012-04-12T23:05:19Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Nobody is arguing that those people do not exist, or are not assholes. I won’t even bother denying they are Christians (as much as I would like to). But can you understand that they do not represent all Christians any more than al Queda represents all Muslims? What percentage of Christians would you say believe homosexuality is sinful? What percentage of Muslims would you say are involved in terrorism? Would you like to reconsider your analogy in light of the answers to these questions? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/214 "2012-04-12T23:21:38Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What percentage of Christians would you say believe homosexuality is sinful? What percentage of Muslims would you say are involved in terrorism? Would you like to reconsider your analogy in light of the answers to these questions? > **[Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold](https://news.gallup.com/poll/135764/americans-acceptance-gay-relations-crosses-threshold.aspx)** > > American men have become more likely to view gay and lesbian relations as "morally acceptable" in recent years, sending overall acceptance to a new high of 52% in 2010. Support for legal gay marriage and the legality of gay and lesbian relations more... Percentage Calling Gay/Lesbian Relations “Morally Acceptable” as of May, 2010 Protestant: 42% Catholic: 62% Other non-Christian: 84% No religion: 85% Looks like some of your broad brushes need to be retired. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/215 "2012-04-13T00:24:36Z")
So your contention is that somewhere between 38 and 58 percent of Muslims are members of al-Qaeda? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/216 "2012-04-13T00:53:49Z")
_Remarkably_ stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/217 "2012-04-13T01:07:11Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > So your contention is that somewhere between 38 and 58 percent of Muslims are members of al-Qaeda? No, my contention is that not all Christians are out to get you, that close to half are fully accepting, and that someone preaching / teaching / witnessing Christ’s admonition to love one another is a good thing. It is also my contention that your focus on a bit of glurge is counter-productive if you want to reduce the amount of anti-gay sentiment and behavior. Finally, it is my contention that on this subject you continue to be dumber than a bag of hammers. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/218 "2012-04-13T01:36:16Z")
Wow I am confused, that’s easily done though. So I am a christian and I was a best man at a gay wedding in a christian church. What does that make me? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/219 "2012-04-13T02:56:20Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Wow I am confused, that’s easily done though. > > So I am a christian and I was a best man at a gay wedding in a christian church. > > What does that make me? A bad Christian. A better _person_, but a bad Christian. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/220 "2012-04-13T03:12:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A bad Christian. A better _person_, but a bad Christian. You do not get to pronounce that. Neither do I, nor do any other Christians, by the way. From the brief description **sisu** gave, I’d say there’s pretty strong evidence for “good friend of the gay groom”, but that’s as far as my powers of deduction take me… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=12)