# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/241 "2012-04-14T19:51:06Z")
Well, yes. The Church of England is mainstream enough that it’s part of the government here, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is head of the church, and the spiritual leader of Anglicanism worldwide, which I think is the second largest christian denomination after Catholicism. It’s hard to get more mainstream, really, and I’ll also note that the Church of England is in general one of the least extreme christian groups, and they are still anti-gay. Canterbury isn’t that close to Devon really, it’s on the opposite end of the south coast. Georgia, that’s near Russia isn’t it? You people all Orthodox then? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/242 "2012-04-14T20:01:45Z")
It was a joke, buddy. I was hinting that you are falling into the same “no true Scottsman” trap as **condescending robot** and **Der Trihs**. Christianity is large and varied. It’s not a monolithic thing. There really isn’t a “mainstream” Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/243 "2012-04-14T20:06:18Z")
Oh, and Devon is a nice place. Very pretty. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/244 "2012-04-14T20:13:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Georgia, that’s near Russia isn’t it? You people all Orthodox then? Shit, I suspected that might cause confusion. My bad. I live in the US state of Georgia. Think Atlanta (I was there for the Olympics back in '96). But I live on the coast. Good shrimp, good fishing, crap surfing. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/245 "2012-04-14T20:28:39Z")
Did I mention that I’m having trouble taking your side seriously? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/246 "2012-04-14T20:30:39Z")
I guess I didn’t. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/247 "2012-04-14T20:31:24Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > No, my contention is that not all Christians are out to get you, that close to half are fully accepting, and that someone preaching / teaching / witnessing Christ’s admonition to love one another is a good thing. “Close to half” is a shitty ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/248 "2012-04-14T20:44:06Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Did I mention that I’m having trouble taking your side seriously? You keep enjoying laughing at people being discriminated against for their sexuality, then. I’m sure your imaginary friend will keep telling you you’re a good boy for it. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/249 "2012-04-14T20:54:08Z")
But see, the glurge cited in the OP was very clearly saying NOT to discriminate. And y’all take offense to that. The disconnect is funny. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/250 "2012-04-14T21:04:08Z")
But see, the two articles I’ve linked to have members of one of the largest churches in the world, in one case a former head of that church, actively discriminating. That’s what I take offence to, and I don’t think it’s funny at all. As for the stuff linked to in the OP, and “love the sinner, hate the sin” stuff in general, anything that claims that homosexuality is wrong in any way is fundamentally discriminatory, and unacceptable, and I take offence at that as well. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/251 "2012-04-14T21:24:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Close to half” is a shitty ratio. Really? Seems to be about average for the US according to the [Pew Research Center](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2006/03/28/a-barometer-of-modern-morals/75-2/). In fact, attitudes about homosexuality seem to be just as strongly correlated (if not more so) with political ideology and education. But as a few posters have asserted in this thread, Christian homophobic bias seems to be mainly concentrated among conservative protestant evangelicals in the US. [Globally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality#Measuring_attitudes_toward_homosexuality), the US seems to be worse than Canada, Western Europe and much of Latin America, but much more accepting than Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. I don’t know if one could draw inferences from those statistics about Christianity as compared to other religions, but I’d say “close to half” being fully accepting isn’t exactly “a shitty ratio.” ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/252 "2012-04-14T21:28:47Z")
**Steophan** , you’re reaching. It seems to me that you _want_ to be hated. The glurge in the OP is about somebody changing their viewpoint. That’s a good thing right? It shows growth. “Gee, maybe homosexuality isn’t evil”. Now, I learned that a long time ago, but you, **Condescending Robot** , and _especially_ **Der Trihs** seem stuck in stage 4 of [Kohleberg’s](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-us-norkor-20120414,0,3787383.story) stages of moral development. Every thing seems black and white to you three. You view the world as either for you and you morality or against you. People are a touch more complicated than that. When confronted with evidence that members of a group that you hate aren’t following your personal expectations, you panic and assume that they must be lying. We don’t want actual people to break your opinion of them, do we? You might have to change your viewpoint! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/253 "2012-04-14T21:31:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [Here is an article](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17712028) where a former Archbishop of Canterbury claims Christians are being discriminated against because they are not legally allowed to discriminate against gays. > > Anyone still want to claim that these are minority, not mainstream views? Pardon me, but if I were the sole person who could singlehancdcly shoot down a compromise resolution iby using my chairmanly authority to recognize only one side in the dispute, essentially setting the stage for the destruction of the Anglican Communion that has been in the process of happening these last 14 years, I would consider myself as desearving any condemnation people chose to heap on me. You will therefore not be surprised to learn that my principles prmit me to despise George Carey passionately. > [@MrDibble](#): > > “Close to half” is a shitty ratio. Agreed. The only thing we can offer is that it’s a better figure than what it would have been 20 or 30 years ago. > [@Steophan](#): > > 'm sure your imaginary friend will keep telling you you’re a good boy for it. “Your imaginary friend” is on a level with “a perverse fascination with other men’s dicks.” I’m quite well aware how insulting it is to reduce the romantic and sexual attraction that leads two people to a loving lifelong commitment to share their lives for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness or in health… down to “likes to play with other people’s weewees.” Could we get the same level of respect for other people’s )like mine) spiritual and religious aspects pf tjeor ;oves? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/254 "2012-04-14T21:38:41Z")
Umm… whoops. That link went to a LA Times article about North Korea’s failed missile launch. I meant to link [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development#Conventional) in regards to moral development. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/255 "2012-04-15T02:28:27Z")
“Nothing is a sin, judge nothing, accept everything” as a moral throwing up of the hands isn’t advanced morality, it’s no morality. With God, everything is permitted. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/256 "2012-04-15T02:44:29Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > “Nothing is a sin, judge nothing, accept everything” as a moral throwing up of the hands isn’t advanced morality, it’s no morality. > > With God, everything is permitted. **Miller** was far too generous in his evaluiation. Over in MPSIMS, the parents of schoolchildren have been discussing what are good remedial reading for comprehension programs. You may want to check that thread out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/257 "2012-04-15T05:36:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As for the stuff linked to in the OP, and “love the sinner, hate the sin” stuff in general, anything that claims that homosexuality is wrong in any way is fundamentally discriminatory, and unacceptable, and I take offence at that as well. The stuff linked to in the OP doesn’t say anything at all about homosexuality being wrong. In fact, it says _exactly the opposite_ of that. Two hundred and fifty posts later, you still haven’t figured that out, despite half a dozen different people pointing it out to you. I find that tremendously amusing. Wait, no “amusing” isn’t the word I was looking for, here. What was it again? Oh, right: pathetic. I find that tremendously pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/258 "2012-04-15T06:20:03Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “a perverse fascination with other men’s dicks.” As opposed to women’s dicks? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/259 "2012-04-15T07:44:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Your imaginary friend” is on a level with “a perverse fascination with other men’s dicks.” I’m quite well aware how insulting it is to reduce the romantic and sexual attraction that leads two people to a loving lifelong commitment to share their lives for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness or in health… down to “likes to play with other people’s weewees.” Could we get the same level of respect for other people’s )like mine) spiritual and religious aspects pf tjeor ;oves? No. Belief in gods is as ridiculous as an adult believing in Santa Claus, and deserves as little respect as such a person would receive. Or less, considering the harm such belief causes. Nor does treating such beliefs with respect accomplish anything besides validate such nonsense in the eyes of the believers, and give their hatred and contempt of unbelievers encouragement. Or it helps enable them to pretend that unbelievers don’t even exist. Sucking up to such nonsense is humiliating and just helps it go on and on for century after century, and it doesn’t even placate them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/260 "2012-04-15T08:16:48Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Really? Seems to be about average for the US according to the [Pew Research Center](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2006/03/28/a-barometer-of-modern-morals/75-2/). In fact, attitudes about homosexuality seem to be just as strongly correlated (if not more so) with political ideology and education. But as a few posters have asserted in this thread, Christian homophobic bias seems to be mainly concentrated among conservative protestant evangelicals in the US. > > [Globally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality#Measuring_attitudes_toward_homosexuality), the US seems to be worse than Canada, Western Europe and much of Latin America, but much more accepting than Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. I don’t know if one could draw inferences from those statistics about Christianity as compared to other religions, but I’d say “close to half” being fully accepting isn’t exactly “a shitty ratio.” “Everyone is doing it” is no excuse for shitty behaviour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=14)