# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/121 "2012-04-07T15:02:16Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Actually, the RCC is wholly consistent on this issue. They say that any non-procreative sex is against the natural order of things and since homosexual sex isn’t procreative, it is not permitted. I’m sure there are some hypocritical bigots that use contraception and vote against legalising gay marriage anyway, which is utterly indefensible in my view. Of course, sex with boys under the age of consent is fine, it’s just consensual adult homosexual sex that’s a problem. Post-menopausal sex, sex with people who have had hysterectomies, rhythm method sex that the Catholics at least think is unlikely to lead to a child, all of this is either explicitly fine or so irrelevant to their crusade that it’s ridiculous to call them “consistent.” The Church hates homosexuals because their religion tells them to be douchebags. There is no “consistency” or “principle” to it beyond that, and to say so is delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/122 "2012-04-07T16:04:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > 1[sup]n[/sup] = 1. Only for certain values of _n_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/123 "2012-04-07T16:38:07Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Actually, the RCC is wholly consistent on this issue. They say that any non-procreative sex is against the natural order of things and since homosexual sex isn’t procreative, it is not permitted. While that may be technically true, I think the way you phrased it leads to a misinterpretation of RCC doctrine. Any sex which precludes the possibility of procreation is sinful, but one mustn’t be striving to procreate in order to have non-sinful sex. The Church recognizes sex as part of the bonding process in marriage, and allow the rhythm method which can be an effective birth control method if rigorously followed. n.b.: I’m an atheist and find no common ground with RCC’s teaching on sex, even if I was raised in the Church and have a pretty good understanding if it’s position. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/124 "2012-04-07T17:10:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Any sex which precludes the possibility of procreation is sinful, but one mustn’t be striving to procreate in order to have non-sinful sex. Well, in the language of the [catechism](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm), they must be “open to life”. Of course, as Condescending Robot points out above, God is probably more likely to split a condom than to grant a post-menopausal woman a pregnancy. Oh well, Catholic doctrine is ineffable. Oh I found [this](http://phys.org/news67783446.html) while looking for their official stance. Reminds me of David Lodge. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/125 "2012-04-07T17:10:10Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I don’t see where he says “they’re terrible sinners, but love them anyway”; he says “love them.” Ah, he loves them. That’s so nice. I’m sure that makes up for everything. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/126 "2012-04-07T17:21:09Z")
Oh and when I was younger I used to get “You’re not a Christian, you’re a Catholic”, “Fenian bastard” and (once) “Papist”. There is only Christian cohesion against a common enemy. As soon as it comes down to actual dogma, I’d say most Christians hold that marginally different sects are still going to end up in hell. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/127 "2012-04-07T23:13:17Z")
Where’s that punk ass bitch sitnam? Talk shit to me then hide. Pussy turkey plucker. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/128 "2012-04-07T23:31:41Z")
> [@FE3O4ENAIL](#): > > Where’s that punk ass bitch sitnam? > Talk shit to me then hide. > Pussy turkey plucker. _giggle_ Internet Tough Guy at 12 o’clock! “Where’s that blah blah blah?” Like he just walked into his neighborhood dive bar looking for the man who slashed his tires. Here’s a word of advice from an uninvolved bystander…drunk posting is rarely a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/129 "2012-04-07T23:38:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > _giggle_ > > Internet Tough Guy at 12 o’clock! “Where’s that blah blah blah?” Like he just walked into his neighborhood dive bar looking for the man who slashed his tires. > > Here’s a word of advice from an uninvolved bystander…drunk posting is rarely a good idea. Oh, come on, we are just having fun. And 4 beers isn’t drunk is it? Do I get some credit for using “turkey plucker” instead of “motherfucker”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/130 "2012-04-07T23:45:16Z")
> [@FE3O4ENAIL](#): > > Do I get some credit for using “turkey plucker” instead of “motherfucker”? Way out of season, actually. Should have used “bunnyshucker”. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/131 "2012-04-08T00:11:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Way out of season, actually. Should have used “bunnyshucker”. Ok, I will try to remember that. Sitnam, I do not know you, so calling you a punk ass bitch was an over reaction on my part. I am sure you are a fine upstanding citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/132 "2012-04-08T00:16:30Z")
That’s ‘fine upstanding punk ass bitch’ to you! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/133 "2012-04-08T13:29:44Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Ah, he loves them. That’s so nice. > > I’m sure that makes up for everything. See, this is what I don’t understand. What exactly is the “everything” that _the author_ needs to “make up for?” It reads to me like you’are unsatisfied with the essayist’s ability to personally atone for all the evils done by the group whose current membership he’s admonishing for those same evils. If your brother tends to bully others and your father acts hypocritically and your mother organizes for homophobic legislation, would I be justified in sarcastically disdaining your efforts to change their attitudes because your words don’t compensate for the damage they’ve already done? “Ah, **Knorf** treats people fairly. Well isn’t that just _swell_?” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/134 "2012-04-08T14:32:54Z")
Saying you “love” someone, whilst treating them like second-class people and supporting the groups oppress them is hypocritical and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/135 "2012-04-08T14:54:32Z")
Right. So if I’m a US citizen, it’s hypocritical and disgusting of me to oppose targetted military assassinations, marriage inequality or draconian drug laws? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/136 "2012-04-08T16:12:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Saying you “love” someone, whilst treating them like second-class people and supporting the groups oppress them is hypocritical and disgusting. Sometimes the “hate the sin, love the sinner” idea is hard to grasp. But let me ask you this: If you had a brother who you were close to and loved completely, and he committed premeditated murder and went to prison, would you visit him? Try to comfort him? Would you still love him? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/137 "2012-04-08T16:19:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sometimes the “hate the sin, love the sinner” idea is hard to grasp. But let me ask you this: If you had a brother who you were close to and loved completely, and he committed premeditated murder and went to prison, would you visit him? Try to comfort him? Would you still love him? Yes, however I doubt I could say I loved him completely under those circumstances. There are two main differences, however. Firstly, murder is wrong, and homosexuality isn’t. Secondly, murder is something you do, homosexual is something you are. The latter difference is the issue here. By hating homosexuality you **are** hating the homosexual, on top of the fact that you have no right to hate it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/138 "2012-04-08T16:33:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, however I doubt I could say I loved him completely under those circumstances. There are two main differences, however. Firstly, murder is wrong, and homosexuality isn’t. Secondly, murder is something you do, homosexual is something you are. The latter difference is the issue here. By hating homosexuality you **are** hating the homosexual, on top of the fact that you have no right to hate it in the first place. I agree about the differences, and I was not equating murder with homosexuality. I was using an extreme example to show how one might love a person yet detest an act associated with that person. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/139 "2012-04-08T16:38:18Z")
Again, homosexuality is not an act, it’s a part of the person. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/140 "2012-04-08T17:43:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sometimes the “hate the sin, love the sinner” idea is hard to grasp. But let me ask you this: If you had a brother who you were close to and loved completely, and he committed premeditated murder and went to prison, would you visit him? Try to comfort him? Would you still love him? I don’t think anyone has any trouble grasping the idea behind “hate the sin, love the sinner,” or, for that matter, particularly disagrees with it. It’s the part where someone says my relationship with my boyfriend is a sin that’s punch-in-the-mouth offensive. The other problem, of course, is that a great number of people who “love the sinner, hate the sin” act in a way that’s indistinguishable from “hate the sinner.” Which leads to a strong suspicion that they do not, in fact, love us at all, and are just using the phrase as a fig leaf to justify their inexcusable actions. That being said, I still don’t see how this particular criticism applies in anyway to the person being pitted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=8)