# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/141 "2012-04-08T18:38:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sometimes the “hate the sin, love the sinner” idea is hard to grasp. Because it’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/142 "2012-04-08T21:02:07Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Because it’s bullshit. And for some, _really hard to grasp._ Shocking. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/143 "2012-04-08T21:08:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think anyone has any trouble grasping the idea behind “hate the sin, love the sinner,” or, for that matter, particularly disagrees with it. It’s the part where someone says my relationship with my boyfriend is a sin that’s punch-in-the-mouth offensive. Wait, so you would punch someone in the mouth because they voice a belief that is held by the Catholic Church whose religion they adhere to, not to mention other religions? > [@Miller](#): > > The other problem, of course, is that a great number of people who “love the sinner, hate the sin” act in a way that’s indistinguishable from “hate the sinner.” Which leads to a strong suspicion that they do not, in fact, love us at all, and are just using the phrase as a fig leaf to justify their inexcusable actions. In which case, they’re just full of shit hypocrites. They’re just not doing what they espouse. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/144 "2012-04-08T21:56:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sometimes the “hate the sin, love the sinner” idea is hard to grasp. I’ll say that the terminology compounds the issue. Using Biblical language puts one in mind of Revelation, where it says that the unbelieving and the sexually immoral (among others) will be thrown into a lake of fire for their second death. Presumably an omnipotent benevolent God thinks this is appropriate, or else said God would intervene. How does this sound: "I love you, but I think that the most compassionate being in existence thinks you deserve to be tortured for all eternity ". ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/145 "2012-04-08T22:02:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wait, so you would punch someone in the mouth because they voice a belief that is held by the Catholic Church whose religion they adhere to, not to mention other religions? I’d err on the side of caution and assume that, by “punch-in-the-mouth offensive”, Miller means that it’s offensive enough to make him want to punch the speaker in the mouth, not that he’d actually do it. That aside, the fact that it is a belief of the Catholic Church does not make it one iota less offensive that it would be if it were just the spewings of some random homophobe. > [@](#): > > In which case, they’re just full of shit hypocrites. They’re just not doing what they espouse. I’m curious about your interpretation of “loving the sinner, hating the sin”. Does it include telling gay people that their love is sinful and that they ought to be celibate? Does it include working to prevent government recognition of their relationships, and using the large financial resources of your religious denomination to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/146 "2012-04-08T22:43:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And for some, _really hard to grasp._ > > Shocking. It’s a platitude that tries to put up a shield of immunity from reprisal when you act or speak like an asshole. This is your theology: “I’m trying to convince you to stop engaging in the sin of blackness because I LOVE you so much! I want to save you from going to hell by dying with the unabsolved sin of blackitude on your immortal soul. I’m not a racist! I don’t hate you for being such a sinner by engaging in mortal blackness! I LOVE you in spite of your terrible flaws that would make a person less saintly than me cast you aside!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/147 "2012-04-09T02:24:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wait, so you would punch someone in the mouth because they voice a belief that is held by the Catholic Church whose religion they adhere to, not to mention other religions? Not me personally, no, but I’m not a violent man. My point was that if someone made a comment that was similarly judgmental and insulting about a heterosexual relationship, it’d be the sort of thing that ended up with someone sweeping up some teeth in a dustpan. It’s on par with telling a guy his wife is a slut. Probably, you could say that and not get in a fight. But if you told a guy that and he punched your lights out, it would not come as a great surprise to anyone who heard about it. Of course, when you say something like that about a gay relationship, and someone objects, all of a sudden it’s an issue of religious freedom, and they’re being oppressed because someone called them on their bigoted bullshit. Which is more or less what you did here, I think. So what if it’s a belief held by the Catholic Church? In what way does that make it okay? And considering the large number of Catholics I know who are both faithful, and not homophobic douchebags, I don’t see why the Rick Santorums of the world should get a pass. If my mom can go to mass once a week, and still invite my boyfriend over to set up the Easter Egg hunt, Senator Man-on-Dog can keep his filthy pie-hole shut about my romantic relationships. > [@](#): > > In which case, they’re just full of shit hypocrites. They’re just not doing what they espouse. Yes, exactly. I find that to be true of virtually every Christian who uses the phrase “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” at least when talking about homosexuality. The Christians who actually live by that maxim never have to say it, because they actually behave in a loving manner towards homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/148 "2012-04-09T14:15:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Saying you “love” someone, whilst treating them like second-class people and supporting the groups oppress them is hypocritical and disgusting. And the author being pitted is doing this how? He’s saying “hey, fellow Christians - we’re commanded to love these people, remember? Let’s not treat them like second-class people.” He deserves applause, not condemnation, because he’s trying to change the very behavior you’re complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/149 "2012-04-09T15:13:36Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > And the author being pitted is doing this how? He’s saying “hey, fellow Christians - we’re commanded to love these people, remember? Let’s not treat them like second-class people.” He deserves applause, not condemnation, because he’s trying to change the very behavior you’re complaining about. He includes gay people and people with tattoos in with criminals. _That_ is the problem, and the attitude that needs to change. That will never happen while people base their attitudes on the voices in their heads, and the ravings of ancient madmen. He should not be saying that these things should be “tolerated”, and that people should be “loved” in spite of them. He should be saying there is nothing wrong with them. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/150 "2012-04-09T16:26:17Z")
The only value judgement I can find in the whole piece is that those who think themselves superior to _any other person_ are wrong to do so. [ > [@the essay in question](#): > > I’m not here to say homosexuality is a sin or isn’t a sin. To be honest, I don’t give a rip. I don’t care. I’m not here to debate whether or not it’s natural or genetic. Again, I… don’t… care. Those debates hold no encumbrance for me. > > What I care about is the need so many of us have to shun and loathe others. > > \ > > There are things we all do or believe that other people consider “sinful.” There are things we all do or believe that other people consider “wrong.” There are things we all do or believe that other people would be disgusted or angered by. > > I think it doesn’t matter if you or I or anybody else thinks homosexuality is a sin. It doesn’t matter if you or I think _anything_ is a sin. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a sin or not. In fact, it doesn’t matter if _anything_ anybody else does is a sin or not. > > Because sin is a very personal thing! It always has been and it always will be! > > And it has nothing to do with love. ]([Birch Family Services: Empowering People. Building Futures.](http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html)) I do not understand why some readers seem to need so badly for the author to be smug, self-righteous or hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/151 "2012-04-09T17:45:11Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > See, this is what I don’t understand. What exactly is the “everything” that _the author_ needs to “make up for?” It reads to me like you’are unsatisfied with the essayist’s ability to personally atone for all the evils done by the group whose current membership he’s admonishing for those same evils. The point is, words are cheap. But also, that this whole “hate the sin love the sinner” applied to people one doesn’t know is 99.9999% of the time utter crap. Hate is hate. If the person doesn’t know the sinner well, hating the sin almost always amounts to hating the sinner as well. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/152 "2012-04-09T18:15:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He includes gay people and people with tattoos in with criminals. That is the problem, and the attitude that needs to change. That will never happen while people base their attitudes on the voices in their heads, and the ravings of ancient madmen. > > He should not be saying that these things should be “tolerated”, and that people should be “loved” in spite of them. He should be saying there is nothing wrong with them. He also includes “our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers,” with criminals. From this, do you deduce that he thinks there is something wrong with being an ex-lover? Do you think he’s trying to draw an moral equivalence between being an ex-lover, and being a criminal? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/153 "2012-04-09T18:18:21Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The point is, words are cheap. > > But also, that this whole “hate the sin love the sinner” applied to people one doesn’t know is 99.9999% of the time utter crap. Hate is hate. If the person doesn’t know the sinner well, hating the sin almost always amounts to hating the sinner as well. Your second paragraph just isn’t relevant to the essay you’re criticising. At no point is “hate the sin love the sinner” used directly or advocated by the author at all. In fact, a major point of the thing is that it’s not even **possible** to know what other people’s “sins” are. It’s right there in the portion I quoted in the post right above yours. You seem to agree with what the essayist said, but you object to the essayist saying it. That’s what I’m struggling to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/154 "2012-04-09T18:59:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He also includes “our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers,” with criminals. From this, do you deduce that he thinks there is something wrong with being an ex-lover? Do you think he’s trying to draw an moral equivalence between being an ex-lover, and being a criminal? He is making a moral challenge to Christians to live up to their beliefs, and love everyone, even criminals, ex-partners, and gays. My point is that homosexuals do not belong in that group, and that the attitude of _anything_ “even though” someone is gay is what needs to change. So, in this case, he is drawing a very specific equivalence between ex-lovers and criminals, which is that they have done something to the Christian in question to justify having that love removed, but that the true Christian should love them anyway. It is unacceptable to include homosexuals in that category. Now, I appreciate that he is well meaning. However, he’s well meaning in the same way that someone letting a black man use his toilet in Alabama in 1960 is well meaning. It’s better than nothing, but there should be no “letting” allowed. It should be a matter of course. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/155 "2012-04-09T19:45:33Z")
**Steophan** , you’re wrong. You’re projecting what you think are the author’s motives onto what he’s saying. He comes right out and says that it doesn’t matter if homesexuality is a sin or not. When he lists them with criminals, ex-lovers and people with tattoos the only thing those people have in common is that they are people who Christians should love and often don’t. Now I know you would agree that Christians don’t have a good track record for loving gay people, so you agree with him there. So let me say this again. (1) In his own words he refuses to say that homosexuality is sinful, and says it doesn’t matter. (2) He says Christians, who are supposed to be loving toward everyone, ought to practice what they preach and love people that they often don’t. (3) People who Christians often fail at loving include criminals, people with tattoos, ex-lovers, and gay people. Things he DOESN’T say: - Homosexuality is bad or a sin - “Love the sin, hate the sinner” - Gays are like criminals - Love gays “even though” they are sinners You keep assigning him the belief that homosexuality is a sin, which is nowhere in this article. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/156 "2012-04-09T19:47:21Z")
duplicate post ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/157 "2012-04-09T20:45:43Z")
To make it clear, the person I’m criticising is the person quoted at the end of the blog post, not the blogger. She says she’s not religious, and doesn’t understand why people have an issue with homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/158 "2012-04-09T20:56:32Z")
I don’t think any of the ‘defenders’ are confused about that. We’ve been talking about the essay “I’m Christian Unless You’re Gay”, referred to at the end of the blog post the OP linked. Here: We’re discussing [this particular composition](http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/159 "2012-04-09T21:23:53Z")
Some quotes from the article. > [@](#): > > Hell, in the past (and to some degree in the present) I participated in it. I propagated it. I smugly took part in it. I’ll admit that. > > And I did so under the blanketing term “Christian.” > [@](#): > > I know there are many here who believe that living a homosexual life is a sin. > > Okay. > [@](#): > > I’m not here to say homosexuality is a sin or isn’t a sin. To be honest, I don’t give a rip. I don’t care. I’m not here to debate whether or not it’s natural or genetic. Again, I… don’t… care. Those debates hold no encumbrance for me. My message to him would be that, if he actually cares about his friend who’s life is being made a misery by anti-gay sentiment in his community, it’s time for him to stop participating in it, stop being ok with people saying homosexuality is sinful, and to care a great deal that people say it is. The question shouldn’t be “Should Christians love homosexuals as they love everyone else?”. It should be “Why is this even a question?”. At best, he’s guilty of moral cowardice, being unwilling to say that homosexuality should not be considered wrong by anyone. More likely, he does have a problem with it, but wants to feel better by “tolerating” it. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/160 "2012-04-09T22:02:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My message to him would be that, if he actually cares about his friend who’s life is being made a misery by anti-gay sentiment in his community, it’s time for him to stop participating in it, stop being ok with people saying homosexuality is sinful, and to care a great deal that people say it is. > > The question shouldn’t be “Should Christians love homosexuals as they love everyone else?”. It should be “Why is this even a question?”. At best, he’s guilty of moral cowardice, being unwilling to say that homosexuality should not be considered wrong by anyone. More likely, he does have a problem with it, but wants to feel better by “tolerating” it. Your point isn’t one he chooses to make. Write your own essay. His point is that it is _ **irrelevant** _ from the POV of proper behavior whether homosexuality is sinful or not. Christianity (and a several other faiths he cites, for that matter) says your job is to love. Just as you love yourself. Yeesh. Someone comes along saying we should love each other, and people are ready to crucify him all over again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=9)