# On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867 "2012-04-04T23:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/161 "2012-04-09T22:03:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The question shouldn’t be “Should Christians love homosexuals as they love everyone else?”. It should be “Why is this even a question?” Right. You agree with the author so far, because like you he doesn’t pose it as a question, but reminds Christians that it’s a commandment. > [@](#): > > At best, he’s guilty of moral cowardice, being unwilling to say that homosexuality should not be considered wrong by anyone. More likely, he does have a problem with it, but wants to feel better by “tolerating” it. Why is it moral cowardice to refrain from condemning others’ thoughts and considerations? The article addresses behavior toward other people as moral peers, regardless of revealed or hidden differences between you and them. It’s about acceptance, not tolerance of those differences, _because they’re irrelevant_. Now, I can see why most people would be uncomfortable with that directive. Most folks didn’t much care for it the first time it was given either. It’s much easier to look down on someone for the things we think they _are_ that we’re not than it is to be careful about how we ourselves _act_ toward them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/162 "2012-04-09T23:27:08Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > His point is that it is _ **irrelevant** _ from the POV of proper behavior whether homosexuality is sinful or not. Which is precisely my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/163 "2012-04-10T02:25:30Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Why is it moral cowardice to refrain from condemning others’ thoughts and considerations? Appeal to the dictionary on this one? What do you think cowardice is? It takes great courage to stand up in a Christian community and tell Christians to change their awful, wrong beliefs about homosexuality. This person doesn’t have that courage. He goes out of his way to say how little he cares if you hold such abhorrent beliefs as “homosexuality is a sin.” He either doesn’t have the desire or doesn’t have the courage to countermand this evil doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/164 "2012-04-10T02:28:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My message to him would be that, if he actually cares about his friend who’s life is being made a misery by anti-gay sentiment in his community, it’s time for him to stop participating in it, stop being ok with people saying homosexuality is sinful, and to care a great deal that people say it is. > > The question shouldn’t be “Should Christians love homosexuals as they love everyone else?”. It should be “Why is this even a question?”. At best, he’s guilty of moral cowardice, being unwilling to say that homosexuality should not be considered wrong by anyone. More likely, he does have a problem with it, but wants to feel better by “tolerating” it. You have confused “moral cowardice” with “good tactics.” Look, there’s two ways we can approach this problem: We can try to convince a large number of people to change their deeply held moral beliefs. Or: We can try to convince a large number of people to change the way they interact with people with whom they disagree morally. Now, if we could do the first, that would be awesome. But that’s a \*hell \*of a lot harder than doing the second one. And if we can get the second one, it’ll fix 90% of the problems gays face in contemporary society. On top of which, if it actually works, we’re in a much strong position to work on getting them to change those deeply held moral beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/165 "2012-04-10T02:38:56Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Appeal to the dictionary on this one? What do you think cowardice is? > > It takes great courage to stand up in a Christian community and tell Christians to change their awful, wrong beliefs about homosexuality. This person doesn’t have that courage. He goes out of his way to say how little he cares if you hold such abhorrent beliefs as “homosexuality is a sin.” He either doesn’t have the desire or doesn’t have the courage to countermand this evil doctrine. “Countermand?” Would _you_ like a dictionary? You may not be aware of this, but the author actually has no signal authority over the doctrine of any established Christian church. Courage has nothing to do with it. And he doesn’t have the desire to argue anyone out of a moral consideration because he’s trying to argue them into moral behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/166 "2012-04-10T03:36:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You have confused “moral cowardice” with “good tactics.” > > Look, there’s two ways we can approach this problem: > > We can try to convince a large number of people to change their deeply held moral beliefs. > > Or: > > We can try to convince a large number of people to change the way they interact with people with whom they disagree morally. > > Now, if we could do the first, that would be awesome. But that’s a \*hell \*of a lot harder than doing the second one. And if we can get the second one, it’ll fix 90% of the problems gays face in contemporary society. On top of which, if it actually works, we’re in a much strong position to work on getting them to change those deeply held moral beliefs. Moreover, this is actually a whole different problem from the one that the author of the essay is addressing. He’s not trying specifically to get conservative Christians to change their attitudes about homosexuality. Rather, he’s denouncing the whole self-righteous attitude of “God hates people that aren’t just like me”. Which, as he notes, is held by a number of people of all religions and of no religion, and directed at an infinite variety of categories of “not-just-like-me”, including both traits that are viewed as actual moral failings and traits that are just “different”. That covers, according to the author, not just gays but also “fat people”, “people with nontraditional piercings”, “people who dress differently”, and “people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion”. Bigotry against homosexuals is indeed a dreadful thing. But I think the essay’s author is spot-on in noting that ultimately, it’s just one particular manifestation of a much bigger dreadful thing: namely, the desire to bully, reject and hate others just for being different from the majority. > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > It takes great courage to stand up in a Christian community and tell Christians to change their awful, wrong beliefs about homosexuality. This person doesn’t have that courage. He goes out of his way to say how little he cares if you hold such abhorrent beliefs as “homosexuality is a sin.” He either doesn’t have the desire or doesn’t have the courage to countermand this evil doctrine. Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/167 "2012-04-10T04:39:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will. Ooh, and now _ **C. Robot** _ had to read that twice… ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/168 "2012-04-10T10:26:32Z")
Which doesn’t make it any more true… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/169 "2012-04-10T11:18:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will. Why would it do anything to combat homophobia at all? It validates homophobia as acceptable, as long as you push it with a smile. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/170 "2012-04-10T13:35:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Why would it do anything to combat homophobia at all? It validates homophobia as acceptable, as long as you push it with a smile. No, you’re making the same mistake as _Robot_ by confusing civility or politeness - “tolarance” - with love. The author’s point is not “be nice to gays, even if you think they are sinful.” Its “love all people, even if they are different than you.” If you are loving someone, it literally does not matter if they are a sinner or not. As the guy says, it’s completely irrelevant. If a particular individual thinks that gay sex is not God’s perfect plan, but _doesn’t care_ and truly loves and respects gay people – I can’t call that homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/171 "2012-04-10T14:47:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will. Let’s go for a third time for Condescending Robot, just so it’ll sink in. I’ll throw in an Amen while I’m at it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/172 "2012-04-10T14:59:46Z")
Someone who believes that they have been told by God that homosexuality is evil is not going to be convinced to act as though it isn’t by a well meaning essay on the internet. They need to be told that there is no God, and to grow up and act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/173 "2012-04-10T16:14:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone who believes that they have been told by God that homosexuality is evil is not going to be convinced to act as though it isn’t by a well meaning essay on the internet. They need to be told that there is no God, and to grow up and act accordingly. No, but they will be convinced by a well delivered sermon, repeated regularly, that hits the core of their belief system. Christ said Love. Period. That is the primary commandment. We don’t get the luxury of choosing WHO to love. The words of Christ are crystal clear, and trump anything from the Old Testament or from a few words from Paul. Hammering that message home is a VERY effective way to shift people over, and it has been very effective. This has been a core part of the various movements - that reminder has been used repeatedly. You can find it in the hearings of the Presbyterian Church, when they started ordaining Gays and Lesbians. You can find it with other sects who have opened their eyes and arms as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/174 "2012-04-10T18:25:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Why would it do anything to combat homophobia at all? It validates homophobia as acceptable, as long as you push it with a smile. I’ll let the advocates of the different approaches speak for themselves here: > [@essay author Dan Pearce](#): > > The greatest spiritual leaders in history have all preached love for others as the basis for all happiness, and never did they accompany such mandates with a list of unlovable actions or deeds. […] > > So if this is the founding directive of all the major religions… why is it that sometimes the most “Christlike” people are they who have no _religion_ at all? […] > > In truth, having a religion doesn’t make a person love or not love others. It doesn’t make a person accept or not accept others. It doesn’t make a person befriend or not befriend others. > > Being without a religion doesn’t make somebody do or be any of that either. > > No, what makes somebody love, accept, and befriend their fellow man is letting go of a need to be **better** than others. […] > > What I care about is the need so many of us have to shun and loathe others. The need so many of us have to feel better or superior to others. The need some of us have to declare ourselves right and “perfect” all the freaking time and any chance we have. > > And for some of us, these are very real _needs_. > > But I will tell you this. All it really is… All _any_ of it really is… is bullying. > > Sneaky, hurtful, duplicitous, bullying. > > Well, guess what. > > There are things we _all_ do or believe that other people consider “sinful.” There are things we all do or believe that other people consider “wrong.” There are things we all do or believe that other people would be disgusted or angered by. > > “Yes, but I have the truth!” most people will adamantly declare. […] > > I promise you it doesn’t matter what you believe, how strongly you live your beliefs, or how true your beliefs are. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks **you** are in the wrong. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks your beliefs are senseless or illogical. Somebody else, somewhere, thinks you have it _all_ wrong. In fact, there are a lot of people in this world who do. […] > > Yet, we _expect and want_ love anyway. We expect and want understanding. We expect and want tolerance. We expect and want humanity. We expect and want _respect_ for our beliefs, even from those who don’t believe the same things we do. Even from those who think we’re wrong, unwise, or incorrect. […] > > I wish we didn’t all have to find ways that we’re better than others or more holy and saintly than others in order to feel _better_ about our own messy selves. > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > There is one mentally diseased state that I should get credit for “tolerating” despite the repulsion it inspires in any sane person, and it’s not homosexuality, it’s religion. […] > > See the problem? See the biogtry? See why Christians are terrible? […] > > If you think homosexuality is wrong or that practicing sodomy is “a sin,” your beliefs are incorrect and you are a bad person. You should change your beliefs. […] > > The Church hates homosexuals because their religion tells them to be douchebags. […] > > It takes great courage to stand up in a Christian community and tell Christians to change their awful, wrong beliefs about homosexuality. This person doesn’t have that courage. The reason why the essay author’s approach is likely more effective than **Condescending Robot** ’s at actually making some people less bigoted against homosexuality is simple. It’s because the essay author comes across as a sympathetic and compassionate person pointing out that **EVERYBODY** is “wrong” or “sinful” when judged by someone of different beliefs. So we should all stop letting those judgements dictate our attitudes and behavior towards others. **Condescending Robot** , on the other hand, comes across as a self-righteous jerk interested only in lecturing those of different beliefs about how wrong and sinful they are. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/175 "2012-04-10T18:35:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone who believes that they have been told by God that homosexuality is evil is not going to be convinced to act as though it isn’t by a well meaning essay on the internet. They need to be told that there is no God, and to grow up and act accordingly. You don’t think an internet essay can convince someone to act nicer to gays - but you do think they can be convinced to _abandon belief in God entirely_ via the same medium? You might want to think that one through a little more. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will. > > Why would it do anything to combat homophobia at all? It validates homophobia as acceptable, as long as you push it with a smile. I agree that **Condescending Robot** ’s mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations won’t do anything to combat homophobia, but I think it’s going a bit far to say that his antics actually validate homophobia. … Oh, wait, you were talking about the guy who wrote the essay, weren’t you? Never mind, then. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/176 "2012-04-10T19:41:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone who believes that they have been told by God that homosexuality is evil is not going to be convinced to act as though it isn’t by a well meaning essay on the internet. They need to be told that there is no God, and to grow up and act accordingly. Yeah! But you just can’t stop there! You need to ferret out those hate-mongers, sterilize them, isolate them on an island and let them all die so the rest of us tolerant people can live in peace! After all, I’m pretty sure they have already been told that there is no God and it’s time to grow up…it’s just not happening as fast as you would like to think it should. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/177 "2012-04-10T21:41:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > IIt’s because the essay author comes across as a sympathetic and compassionate person pointing out that **EVERYBODY** is “wrong” or “sinful” when judged by someone of different beliefs. No, not “everybody” is wrong or sinful, and neither you nor the author of the article actually believe that, so let’s cut the bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/178 "2012-04-10T21:50:47Z")
Tattoos are banned in Leviticus. Spousal abuse doesn’t feature from what I recall, but it is repudiated by Paul (as are expensive clothes and gold jewelry). On the other hand, belonging to a biker gang and doing drugs aren’t sins of themselves from what I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/179 "2012-04-10T21:55:52Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > No, not “everybody” is wrong or sinful, and neither you nor the author of the article actually believe that, so let’s cut the bullshit. You’re really good at telling other people what they believe despite what they say they believe. How do you do that? In a year of sermons, I might hear one about how other people are sinners - maybe. I’ll probably hear 50 about my own sins, though. But I guess you know better than Christians do about what they believe. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867/180 "2012-04-11T00:17:08Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > In a year of sermons, I might hear one about how other people are sinners - maybe. I’ll probably hear 50 about my own sins, though. But I guess you know better than Christians do about what they believe. OK. The vast majority of Christians in America, and a supermajority so large as to make any other viewpoints basically irrelevant in the rest of the world, spend most of their time doing things like working to pass laws against the existence of homosexuals and stoning witches. I know you feel really great about being in the elite 1% that have figured out The Real Christianity; what does that get me when the 99% who are obviously doing it wrong show up at my door? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-im-christian-unless-youre-gay-and-christian-tolerance/617867.md?page=10)