# On: Is self-representing in court a bad idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 20, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719 "2014-12-20T05:15:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/81 "2015-03-05T03:07:36Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > 4.) Prove-up took 5 minutes. Dissolution was signed by us and the judge, and for $600 (I covered my ex’s respondent fee) and a personal day from work I got a divorce that was worth every penny. **Oh, and my ex and I went out to lunch afterwards.** > > So in some circumstances, pro se can work. But I’ll be the first to admit that my situation was pretty unique. That must have been an awkward lunch. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/82 "2015-03-05T04:11:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that this is a bit circular. > > After the conventional wisdom has been solidly established as maintaining that self-representation is a bad idea, then the people who insist on doing it anyway will naturally contain a very high percentage of cranks, and these are people a lawyer wouldn’t want as clients anyway. But if the conventional wisdom were to become that self-representation is a good idea, then a lot of more normal people - and desirable clients - might go for it as well. So it’s in the interests of lawyers to promote the notion that everyone should hire a lawyer. I get where you’re coming from but your point hinges on an assumption that self-representation is not undertaken by normal people because of conventional as opposed to actual wisdom. However, IMHO actually self-representation is not (at least by choice) undertaken by normal people _because its highly sub-optimal in most cases_ and not due to merely conventional wisdom. I basically act for medium and large corporations who are always going use lawyers for the same reason they don’t mow their own lawns. I don’t have a stake in the outcome of this debate one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/83 "2015-03-06T14:40:24Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I get where you’re coming from but your point hinges on an assumption that self-representation is not undertaken by normal people because of conventional as opposed to actual wisdom. However, IMHO actually self-representation is not (at least by choice) undertaken by normal people _because its highly sub-optimal in most cases_ and not due to merely conventional wisdom. I don’t agree with this. Even if it’s true that self-representation is a bad idea, if it were to (incorrectly) become the conventional wisdom that it’s a good idea, then you would have a lot more normal people - and desirable clients - going that route. It’s true that many of these people would be harming themselves and clogging up the system in the process. But that’s another argument. To the extent that the argument is about the self-interest of lawyers in opposing self-representation, the argument that “most pro-ses are nuts anyway” is circular. > [@](#): > > I basically act for medium and large corporations who are always going use lawyers for the same reason they don’t mow their own lawns. I don’t have a stake in the outcome of this debate one way or the other. I would observe that 1) the supply-demand situation in one part of the market has a ripple effect on other parts, 2) even someone who is personally not impacted is influenced by the prevailing opinion of the profession as a whole, and most importantly 3) perhaps you personally have no stake in it. I don’t think everyone holding that position is necessarily motivated by self-interest (especially since I think that position is largely correct anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/84 "2015-03-06T16:56:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > When a party is self-represented on a matter that is not a simple matter, it usually isn’t that the person could not retain counsel, but instead is because the party does not want to pay counsel, or has unrealistic expectations or demands that a lawyer could not meet, or just plain hates lawyers. Is this a report of your personal observation that has been through actual experience, or some other data source? Or just assumption? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/85 "2015-03-06T19:51:24Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I mentioned this. Zero responses. Because it wasn’t deserving of a response. Someone (a plumber?) who’s paid to deal with natural gas lines shouldn’t have to post a “disclaimer” to tell someone “Dude…_DON’T_ JUST CUT THE GAS LINE WITH YOUR BLOWTORCH! Get a professional!” An electrician who, hearing that someone is considering getting up on a ladder and soldering a downed electrical line back together shouldn’t have to say “Before I say that it would be a bad idea to do this, I need to let you know that I am in the pay of BIG ELECTRICAL and have VESTED INTERESTS” It’s a dumb concern/objection. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/86 "2015-03-06T19:59:35Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Is this a report of your personal observation that has been through actual experience, or some other data source? Or just assumption? For me, it was in part watching a poster on a message board post hundreds of BOLD-FACED, BIG FONTED, COLOR-WORD-EMPHASISED rants on how he or she was going to beat the system by being his or her own lawyer and in the end, the judge said more-or-less “there’s nothing to support this person’s case”. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/87 "2015-03-07T00:39:23Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > For me, it was in part watching a poster on a message board post hundreds of BOLD-FACED, BIG FONTED, COLOR-WORD-EMPHASISED rants on how he or she was going to beat the system by being his or her own lawyer and in the end, the judge said more-or-less “there’s nothing to support this person’s case”. Not the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/88 "2015-03-07T04:36:37Z")
Stiod, your reputation as a self-represented person precedes you. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/89 "2015-03-07T12:03:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t agree with this. Even if it’s true that self-representation is a bad idea, if it were to (incorrectly) become the conventional wisdom that it’s a good idea, then you would have a lot more normal people - and desirable clients - going that route. Nope, you’re doing it again. You can’t get away from the idea it’s just conventional wisdom. If it became (incorrect) conventional wisdom that it was a good idea, then a lot more normal people would try it and find it didn’t work, and conventional wisdom would line up with actual wisdom once again. As to self interest, the knock on effect doesn’t worry me. I’m well over halfway through my career and I’m a senior specialist in my field. If every retail lawyer suddenly ran out of work tomorrow as a consequence of self representation, the impact on people like me wouldn’t be felt for a decade after I’d retired. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/90 "2015-03-07T22:31:40Z")
A current story in the _New York Times_ involves this question. [The Pigeon King and the Ponzi Scheme That Shook Canada - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/magazine/the-pigeon-king-and-the-ponzi-scheme-that-shook-canada.html) ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/91 "2015-03-09T17:58:27Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Thank you! You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/92 "2015-03-09T19:58:20Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > A current story in the _New York Times_ involves this question. [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/magazine/the-pigeon-king-and-the-ponzi-scheme-that-shook-canada.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/magazine/the-pigeon-king-and-the-ponzi-scheme-that-shook-canada.html) Fascinating - thank you! Although the whole article is worth reading, the trial stuff is in section 5, “Catharsis,” for those who just want to see that. The defendant definitely did not help his case by representing himself. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/93 "2015-03-10T03:20:47Z")
I went to court for the traditional ‘Speeding while a 19-year old’ most of us did at 19. People I knew suggested I get a lawyer. I just never got around to it. 2 cases before me - 19 year old kid up for speeding. Judge: ‘Have you anything to say?’ Elderly gent in nice suit gets up and says ‘He’s a good boy, he wont do it again, needs his license for work, blah, blah,blah’. Judge: ‘3 months license suspension’. 1 case before me. Kid. Another distinguished looking gent gets up: ‘Good boy, wont do it again, needs license’. Judge: ‘3 months’. I’m up. Judge ‘Have you anything to say’? Me: ‘I’m a good boy, I wont do it again, I need my license for work’. Judge stares at me: ‘$200 fine’. From a purely rational view, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with our legal system where you can only fully understand the laws of the land if you are a trained expert. These laws are supposed to be for our protection, and for ensuring a smooth running of society - but over centuries, the concept has become completely twisted. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/94 "2015-03-10T04:04:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That must have been an awkward lunch. 😕 “So… I hear you’re single…” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/95 "2015-03-10T14:28:16Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Nope, you’re doing it again. You can’t get away from the idea it’s just conventional wisdom. > > If it became (incorrect) conventional wisdom that it was a good idea, then a lot more normal people would try it and find it didn’t work, and conventional wisdom would line up with actual wisdom once again. Not completely and not right away. > [@Wallaby](#): > > I went to court for the traditional ‘Speeding while a 19-year old’ most of us did at 19. People I knew suggested I get a lawyer. I just never got around to it. > > 2 cases before me - 19 year old kid up for speeding. Judge: ‘Have you anything to say?’ Elderly gent in nice suit gets up and says ‘He’s a good boy, he wont do it again, needs his license for work, blah, blah,blah’. Judge: ‘3 months license suspension’. > > 1 case before me. Kid. Another distinguished looking gent gets up: ‘Good boy, wont do it again, needs license’. Judge: ‘3 months’. > > I’m up. Judge ‘Have you anything to say’? Me: ‘I’m a good boy, I wont do it again, I need my license for work’. Judge stares at me: ‘$200 fine’. It sounds like you gained by being self-represented. But I don’t know if that’s a valid conclusion. Even if the charges against all 3 of you were the same, the details of the violation might have been different, and - even more likely - the past histories might have been different (people generally hire lawyers for traffic violations if they have serious charges or have a history of violations). The judge has all this info in front of him when making his decision. > [@](#): > > From a purely rational view, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with our legal system where you can only fully understand the laws of the land if you are a trained expert. These laws are supposed to be for our protection, and for ensuring a smooth running of society - but over centuries, the concept has become completely twisted. I don’t think it’s so much knowledge of the law as it is knowledge of court/trial/testimony rules and procedures. These are not so relevant to people who don’t do these things professionally. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/96 "2015-03-10T17:03:41Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Because it wasn’t deserving of a response. Someone (a plumber?) who’s paid to deal with natural gas lines shouldn’t have to post a “disclaimer” to tell someone “Dude…_DON’T_ JUST CUT THE GAS LINE WITH YOUR BLOWTORCH! Get a professional!” > > An electrician who, hearing that someone is considering getting up on a ladder and soldering a downed electrical line back together shouldn’t have to say “Before I say that it would be a bad idea to do this, I need to let you know that I am in the pay of BIG ELECTRICAL and have VESTED INTERESTS” > > It’s a dumb concern/objection. When an occupation has been considered [one of the least trustworthy](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1654/honesty-ethics-professions.aspx) for ages now resulting in being the [butt of jokes](http://jokes.cc.com/funny-lawyer-jokes) poking fun at that dishonesty, it’s hard to compare it to being a plumber. I haven’t heard any good plumber jokes lately, myself. That said, I would expect a plumber to say he was a plumber because, forgetting about ethics and disclosure, it’s nice to know that the person giving the advice is an expert and didn’t just stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719/97 "2015-03-11T05:41:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not completely and not right away. Do you realise the implications of what you just said in the context of your own point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-is-self-representing-in-court-a-bad-idea/707719.md?page=4)