# On Killing Bears **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466 "2005-02-10T21:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/21 "2005-02-11T01:35:35Z")
Shall I take this one and give you a break, **Stranger**? I feel your frustration! Grizzlies do not attack and kill for sport, **alice\_in\_wonderland**! Spend a little bit of time researching them before you make such a phenomenally ignorant statement. Heck, just read the thread(s) you’re commenting on. Sure, there are exceptions from time-to-time, but they’re just that–exceptions. Oh, by the way, **Stranger** , a male moose is a bull, not a buck. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/22 "2005-02-11T01:37:17Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Shall I take this one and give you a break, **Stranger**? I feel your frustration! Thanks for the pinch hit. > [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Oh, by the way, **Stranger** , a male moose is a bull, not a buck. I stand corrected. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/23 "2005-02-11T01:58:29Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > _sigh_ > > It’s like I’m shouting into the void. :rolleyes: > > Stranger It’s a cultural thing. You won’t be able to penetrate the hunter’s ego. They have learned to relate to game and predatory animals as something to either be feared or eaten. They have removed any empathy and reason to steel their hand and numb their conscience. It’s a necessary thing to kill. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/24 "2005-02-11T02:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > **Anaamika** said: > In this thread, Scarface Z wants to know what gun to bring with him when camping/hiking whatever so if he runs across a bear he can shoot it. I don’t know anything about bears. However, is this really necesary? Shooting any bear you see? No. But if one is pissed off at you and in close range, you’re going to want something better than hoping you can outrun it - because you can’t outrun a bear. They’re fast. The best thing is avoidance of the bears, seriously. > [@](#): > > **devilsknew** said: > You won’t be able to penetrate the hunter’s ego. That generalization was unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/25 "2005-02-11T02:26:10Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > It’s a cultural thing. You won’t be able to penetrate the hunter’s ego. They have learned to relate to game and predatory animals as something to either be feared or eaten. They have removed any empathy and reason to steel their hand and numb their conscience. It’s a necessary thing to kill. I don’t think that’s quite it. I’ve hunted (though I have since lost interest in it) and I didn’t view everything as just a threat or dinner, and while you can’t just cry over what you’ve killed, it doesn’t mean you can’t appreciate nature. The American Indians were hunter/gatherers, but they had a reverence for the bear and didn’t kill without need, nor did they fear bears unreasonably. I think it’s just ignorance, compounded by the fact that every museum with a stuffed bear shows it upright with teeth bared, and every film with a bear in it has the bear attacking someone. It’s like people and gorillas; they’re big, they’re hairy, they’re loud, they pound their chests, and most of what people know about them comes from a fictional movie; therefore, they’re aggressive and dangerous. Until Dian Fossey wades in to the middle of a clan and starts playing with them. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/26 "2005-02-11T02:43:34Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > The best thing is avoidance of the bears, seriously. More specifically, the best thing is to get the bears to avoid you. Make lots of noise as you’re hiking and camping, and keep the odors to a minimum and away from your person. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/27 "2005-02-11T02:47:02Z")
To be fair to **alice** , there have been several stories in the past few years of grizzlies attacking sleeping campers and so on. Yes, even we Canadians do a bit of hysteria-creation from time to time! ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/28 "2005-02-11T03:13:43Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > > [@devilsknew](#): > > > > You won’t be able to penetrate the hunter’s ego. > > That generalization was unfair. Paint me with a broad brush and color me generalized. I’ve hunted. Just speaking from experience. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/29 "2005-02-11T03:40:35Z")
::Humming _The Hunter_ by Danzig:: ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/30 "2005-02-11T03:46:41Z")
Humming _Fred Bear_ by Ted Nugent. Now, if that ain’t one huge, impenetrable, gonzo ego then I don’t know what is! A Wango Tango! Love ya Ted! Keep on rockin’! ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/31 "2005-02-11T03:50:20Z")
> [@LaurAnge](#): > > Yes, even we Canadians do a bit of hysteria-creation from time to time! Say, is all that seal-clubbing still going on in Calgary? ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/32 "2005-02-11T03:53:34Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > Say, is all that seal-clubbing still going on in Calgary? So, this baby seal walks into a club… BADUM-TISH! I killed FIVE baby seals with my BARE HANDS! ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/33 "2005-02-11T04:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] > [@](#): > > I don’t mean to imply bears aren’t dangerous–they’re big, fast, wild animals that could, if they so desired, knock you down with one swat and procede to tear you limb from limb–but they evolved as onmivores and prey to other, larger, now extinct predators, and so their response is one of defense rather than immediate attack. > Stranger What “other, larger, now extinct predators” hunted bears…ever? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/34 "2005-02-11T05:28:40Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What “other, larger, now extinct predators” hunted bears…ever? From [here](http://www.animalalliance.ca/article.phtml?article=bearrep6&dir=projects&title=Bear+Alliance%3A+How+Dangerous+are+Black+Bears%3F) > [@](#): > > Up until the last 10,000 years, black bears survived by being timid and ready to escape from **saber-toothed cats, dire wolves, American lions, and short-faced bears**. Black bears existed by staying near trees, which those predators could not climb. Bears are used to being, and act like, prey. On irregular occasions (usually late fall, right before winter somnolescence) they predate, usually on small or old herbivores. They are opportunistic scavengers, but not primary predators. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/35 "2005-02-11T14:07:39Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > So, you’re saying an AR-15 would not be effective against a bear? If the bear is hunting you, the chances are all you will see is a flash of fur and a splash of your own blood. Swinging around a long barelled rifle to aim at the ball of muscle and fur now pouncing on top of you while you lay splayed out on the ground would be difficult. Bears don’t huff, grunt, and bluff charge when they are hunting. That’s just they’re way of saying “I’d prefer you leave”. If they are hunting, they will track, prowl, and corner you. And they will stay quiet. You’re better off with close quarters protection. And something above a .40. But in the theoretical case of some guy blasting away at any bear he sees, he’d be an idiot. At the least, he’d be poaching. But he also is running the risk of taking a bear that wasn’t the least bit interested in having any contact, and turning it into an injured, threatened, and angry bear while he stands there reloading. Seeing a black bear in the wild is kinda cool. Seeing a _grizzley_ in the wild is awe inspiring. (Granted I was given the comfort of being about fifty feet above it on a sheer cliff.) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/36 "2005-02-11T17:53:30Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > If the bear is hunting you, the chances are all you will see is a flash of fur and a splash of your own blood. Swinging around a long barelled rifle to aim at the ball of muscle and fur now pouncing on top of you while you lay splayed out on the ground would be difficult. > > Bears don’t huff, grunt, and bluff charge when they are hunting. That’s just they’re way of saying “I’d prefer you leave”. If they are hunting, they will track, prowl, and corner you. And they will stay quiet. > > You’re better off with close quarters protection. And something above a .40. > > But in the theoretical case of some guy blasting away at any bear he sees, he’d be an idiot. At the least, he’d be poaching. But he also is running the risk of taking a bear that wasn’t the least bit interested in having any contact, and turning it into an injured, threatened, and angry bear while he stands there reloading. > > Seeing a black bear in the wild is kinda cool. Seeing a _grizzley_ in the wild is awe inspiring. (Granted I was given the comfort of being about fifty feet above it on a sheer cliff.) An intelligent post. In Denali Park I watched two grizzlies (sow and cub) literally tear the side of a hill apart trying to dig out a parka squirrel. Boulders two feet across were flying like pebbles as they plowed a swath easily ten feet wide. A lot of expended energy for a mouthful of meat that they probably never caught. Stories abound about the adrenaline rush that sustains a bear even after a _lethal_ wound. Just because you shoot it, it won’t necessarily go down before turning you into so much shredded underwear. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/37 "2005-02-11T18:08:28Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Seeing a black bear in the wild is kinda cool. Seeing a _grizzley_ in the wild is awe inspiring. (Granted I was given the comfort of being about fifty feet above it on a sheer cliff.) Awe inspiring? Yes, until five hours later when it’s claw is turning your friend’s head into swiss cheese. (And yes, I speak from experience.) ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/38 "2005-02-11T18:13:02Z")
Look - I didn’t mean that grizzlys carry an 3030, hide in duckshilds and pick people off as their passing. What I meant was that techniques that work for avoiding a black bear attack, such as curling up in a ball, don’t work for grizzlys - if a person is prone, and a grizzly knows they’re there, many times the bear will attempt to eat them. I’m basing that statement on all of the literature that visitors to Banff national park receive every time they visit - if you see a black bear, stop-drop-and roll. If you see a grizzly, get the hell out of dodge. That is, a grizzly won’t just kill/attack you only because you’ve threated it, it could kill/attack you because it’s hungry, pissed off, or feels like it. In any case, if forced I would rather, in descending order of appeal: a) meet no bear, b) meet a black bear c) meet a grizzly with someone with a large rifle and the ability to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/39 "2005-02-11T18:45:40Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > What I meant was that techniques that work for avoiding a black bear attack, such as curling up in a ball, don’t work for grizzlys - if a person is prone, and a grizzly knows they’re there, many times the bear will attempt to eat them. > > I’m basing that statement on all of the literature that visitors to Banff national park receive every time they visit - if you see a black bear, stop-drop-and roll. If you see a grizzly, get the hell out of dodge. Well, it’s true that blacks and grizzlies/kodiaks act differently, but I have to disagree with your thoughts on defending against a grizzly. From [here](http://ksks.essortment.com/grizzlybeara_rtbo.htm): > [@](#): > > If you do encounter a Grizzly bear, do not panic and DO NOT run. Running usually results in an attack. Also, do not shout or wave your arms. Instead, stand still and avoid looking it in the eyes. You might also want to talk softly to it. This will help the bear identify what you are and that you are not a threat. If you are carrying pepper spray then now is the time to take it out and get ready to use it. If you see it is going to attack or gets aggressive, you should make a lot of noise–make yourself “big”, because that is how a bear tells another bear to leave him alone. Then–and ONLY—if the bear attacks, do you curl up in a ball. and: > [@](#): > > The above scenario is assuming that the Grizzly Bear is attacking in defense. This is usually the case, but in rare instances a Grizzly will initiate a predatory attack. A “predatory” attack is when the bear’s intention is to kill and not defend. This will usually come out of the blue – while you’re sleeping in your tent for example. The only way to deal with this type of attack is to fight with anything you have. You need to convince the bear to give up on you and look for easier prey. If the Grizzly attacks someone else, then try to distract the bear from the victim or attack it with any available weapon. With black bears, the best thing to do is not curl up into a ball–they may become curious and unwary and approach further–but stand up, yell, throw sticks, et cetera, if you feel threatened. I’ve come across black bears several times in hiking, alone, in the San Gabriel and San Bernardino National Forests, and at no time did I ever feel that a bear threatened to attack me. The one incident in which [I was accosted by a bear](http://www.simpsoncity.com/hiking/news/SGVT081903a.html) it was clear that the bear just wanted to get to my pack (laying on a picnic table) before I did, and in fact I think the bear was just as surprised as I was when it plowed into me. It stood over me for several seconds while I was prone, and did absolutely nothing to threaten me. When grabbed my pack and started dragging it away, it took nothing more than some yelling and a few thrown rocks for it to let go of my pack (with peanut butter and honey sandwiches in the top bag) and trundle off dejectedly. I really felt more sorry for the poor creature than anything; here he thought he’d found a special treat and some hairless freak comes along and takes it away from him. ☹ As far as the park literature, be aware that the first goal of the park rangers is to keep the people and animals seperate, _so the animals don’t become socialized or dependant on handouts_. This is just as true for squirrels, coyotes, and deer as it is for bears. Bears that become too used to human food lose the ability to forage in the winter when the park is deserted, and can go hungry; and your junk food isn’t any better for them than it is for you. To that end, they may put warnings in the literature that sound a threat to you (so you’ll pay attention) but are really an attempt to protect the wildlife. > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > [hat is, a grizzly won’t just kill/attack you only because you’ve threated it, it could kill/attack you because it’s hungry, pissed off, or feels like it. In rare instances a grizzly bear (and even more rarely a black bear) may make an unprovoked attack. If this happens, there isn’t a heck of a lot you can do about it. If a bear is stalking you, you’ll never know it because despite their bulk and apparent clumsiness they are actually quite swift and quiet when they want to be. As **NurseCarmen** said, all you’ll see is a flash of fur, with no time to swing a rifle or even draw a large pistol. _Fortunately_ these attacks are very rare; much rarer, say, than being spontaneously attacked by some drunk at a bar or some punk on the street. > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > In any case, if forced I would rather, in descending order of appeal: a) meet no bear, b) meet a black bear c) meet a grizzly with someone with a large rifle and the ability to use it. Actually, I count any time I run into a black bear as a great day out, just as I would with a deer or a wolf. I love seeing them in the wild. I don’t know that I’d be quite as comfortable close to a grizzly, but I’d really love to see one from a reasonable distance some day. _sigh_ Are people still afraid of gorillas, too? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466/40 "2005-02-11T19:22:51Z")
There are probably few people on the board more opposed to hunting than me (I think that to go out and kill wildlife for fun is totally sick), but I don’t have a problem at all with someone being prepared to defend themselves if put in danger of severe injury or death by said wildlife. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-killing-bears/289466.md?page=3)