# On making beds and lying in them: Vietnam deserter arrested. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117 "2006-03-13T01:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/21 "2006-03-13T04:19:54Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > [More on this](http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=08ec806e-2c4d-4d06-9604-123af7ad435c&k=88511): > > \*\*He volunteered. In 1968. \*\* He knew what he was getting into. He’s a deserter, plain and simple. Until now I was willing to offer a certain amount of leniency (with some minor hand-slap punishment), but now I say they should throw the book at him. Bolding mine Ding, ding, ding! ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/22 "2006-03-13T04:21:12Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Negligent Hubris. > > Ain’t a crime? It should be. C’mon - if that was a crime, we’d be mighty short of prison cells. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/23 "2006-03-13T04:22:29Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Bolding mine > > Ding, ding, ding! Hey, I thought you _liked_ Marines? 😃😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/24 "2006-03-13T04:22:39Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > [More on this](http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=08ec806e-2c4d-4d06-9604-123af7ad435c&k=88511): > > He volunteered. In 1968. He knew what he was getting into. He’s a deserter, plain and simple. Until now I was willing to offer a certain amount of leniency (with some minor hand-slap punishment), but now I say they should throw the book at him. Oh, yeah. More human suffering in a lost cause. That’ll do us all a lot of good. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/25 "2006-03-13T04:27:31Z")
You’re right. Why prosecute anybody for breaking laws, ever? It’s already done, so it’s a lost cause. :rolleyes: That’s why we have laws, so people are accountable for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/26 "2006-03-13T04:29:46Z")
> [@Uvula Donor](#): > > Hmmf. I thought Carter granted a blanket pardon to them runaways. I guess it must have been just draft-dodgers. Or maybe not. [http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=08ec806e-2c4d-4d06-9604-123af7ad435c&k=88511](http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=08ec806e-2c4d-4d06-9604-123af7ad435c&k=88511) > [@](#): > > In 1977 then-U.S. president Jimmy Carter signed a pardon for Vietnam draft dodgers and deserters, but the program required deserters to apply for the special discharge review program. Abney didn’t apply. As an aside, the guy lived in Canada since he was 10. Had dual citizenship, according to the article to which I linked above. Not that that helps him legally. Perhaps what will happen is similar to what happened to a Mr. Shields(again, from the article). > [@](#): > > In 2000, Richard Allen Shields, a truck driver from Castlegar, found himself behind bars in Washington state on an old warrant charging him with deserting the U.S. Army in 1972. Shields left at age 19 during training in Fairbanks, Alaska, following a one-year tour in Vietnam. The Eugene, Ore., native enlisted when he was 17 years old. Like Abney, Shields didn’t apply for a pardon through the special discharge review program. > > Shields spent three weeks in jail – first in a Washington county jail and then in a military barracks at Fort Sill, Okla. – before winning a general discharge. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/27 "2006-03-13T04:31:58Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > What crime would you charge them with? I think thats kind of the point. A G.I. if he fucks up badly, and negligently can be charged with various crimes. A President, or other high ranking offical can fuck up badly, and neglently but get charged with no crime. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/28 "2006-03-13T04:32:32Z")
Even deserters got amnesty. > [@](#): > > In 1977 then-U.S. president Jimmy Carter signed a pardon for Vietnam draft dodgers and deserters, but the program required deserters to apply for the special discharge review program. Abney didn’t apply. I find it hard to get worked up over _anyone_ who decided Vietnam wasn’t worth fighting over. Unless they campaign on how war is always good and just, that is. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/29 "2006-03-13T04:39:25Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’ll feel the scales of justice are a LEETLE more evenly balanced when McNamara and Kissinger are properly housed in jail cells, too. Never happen, of course. Which is why I don’t agree with your rant. The filter only works one way: those who committed crimes in avoiding/stopping the war are prosecuted, those who committed crimes in prosecuting it get off scot-free. Based on your post count, this is going to take awhile. Maybe you can help me out. Any links to your outrage about Johnson and Kennedy? Any link to a post where you praised Nixon for ending the war? _crickets_ Didn’t think so. And regarding the OP, yes the guy should go to prison. He volunteered for service. When he was called upon, he turned tail. I’m sick and tired of hearing about people signing up for service to get the bennies, then don’t think they should have to serve in a dangerous situation because they only signed up for the benies. College tuition? Training in a trade? A steady paycheck? Those benefits are guaranteed **because** you sign your life over to Uncle Sam. There is no free ride in life. Most people understand this. When you join the military, you get certain benefits. Including education, housing credits (and a pretty good deal in buying a home), job security if you want to make it a carreer, etc. You get these benefits because you understand that at any time you could be in a shitstorm. Nobody actively wants American’s to be in harm’s way. Well, nobody in charge, though quite a few here that hope the murderers pay. When you join the military, you understand that you may have to put your life on the line. That’s why the incentives are so big. If I could get the same benefits as active military with no risk of personal risk, I’d sign up in a minute. So would everyone else. The benefits aren’t available to everyone. Only those that enlist. And those that voluntarily enlist have an obligation. To serve. You don’t get to pick and choose what you’ll do to gain whatever benefit you get from enlisting. When you enlist, you do what the military asks of you. Period. If you’re drafted, big difference. If you enlist, commit to your obligation. I hope this guy rots. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/30 "2006-03-13T04:51:04Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > You’re right. Why prosecute anybody for breaking laws, ever? It’s already done, so it’s a lost cause. :rolleyes: > > That’s why we have laws, so people are accountable for their actions. No, we have laws to maintain social order. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/31 "2006-03-13T05:03:05Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, we have laws to maintain social order. No, we have laws to punish those that do things that are detrimental to social order. Social order is based on laws being enforced. I swear I hope you’re whooshing us, **treis**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/32 "2006-03-13T05:03:11Z")
> [@Duffer](#): > > You don’t get to pick and choose what you’ll do to gain whatever benefit you get from enlisting. When you enlist, you do what the military asks of you. Period. If you’re drafted, big difference. If you enlist, commit to your obligation. [cough]“Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report…”[/cough] ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/33 "2006-03-13T05:07:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [cough]“Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report…”[/cough] Well, he wasn’t in Moscow protesting America. We know that because he never left the country. And don’t give me any shit about bringing up Clinton. It’s tired. If one President can be heckled over something that happened in the 60’s, so can another. We had 8 years of lectures over the lack of importance of service in Viet Nam. Now it’s supposed to be an issue. I didn’t write the rules for present-day politics. Talk to Carville if you have a problem with it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/34 "2006-03-13T05:07:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hasn’t there been talking of Kissinger being indicted for well on 30 years now? I don’t know. With what specific crime would he be indicted? You can’t indict someone just because you disaprove of what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/35 "2006-03-13T05:07:57Z")
I don’t have a problem with deserters. The Military is just a job like any other and anybody should have the right to quit a job. I don’t see it as being any different than walking out of a job at McDonald’s. Still, if they’re going to insist on rounding up Vietnam deserters I hope they don’t forget to pay a visit to Pennsylvania Avenue. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/36 "2006-03-13T05:10:41Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > No, we have laws to punish those that do things that are detrimental to social order. > > Social order is based on laws being enforced. > > I swear I hope you’re whooshing us, **treis**. What exactly about my statement indicates a whoosh, or makes you hope that it is a whoosh? Laws are there to maintain social order, not some sort of way to force someone to accept arbitrary punishment for arbitrary actions. Imprisoning this man does nothing to benefit society, except those that take joy in petty vendictive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/37 "2006-03-13T05:10:47Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Gee, John, I just don’t think your heart’s in the task of finding an appropriate US law to prosecute the bastards under. I’ll bet someone with liberal tendencies and thorough job of the law could manage it. I have faith in our legal system, you see … It’s not about the heart, it’s about the head. You’re a liberal. Why can’t you come up with a US law that was violated? Is it not in your heart (or head)? > [@](#): > > You’re right, letting the North Vietnamese conquer the US just to nail the guys who prosecuted Vietnam is just too much trouble, however much they deserve it. But the general sentiment was, the guy in charge knew that what they were doing could be viewed as war crimes by the Vietnamese. And if the Veitnamese can, why not the UN? Letting the UN have some teeth wrt how the US conducts itself … not so horrible, from my POV. Well, let’s suppose we did that, with the UN. I would hope there would be a no _ex post facto_ clause associated with that. Unless you’re advocated prosecuting someone for a crime that didn’t exist at the time he committed it. You’re not advocate **that** , are you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/38 "2006-03-13T05:12:35Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, he wasn’t in Moscow protesting America. We know that because he never left the country. > > And don’t give me any shit about bringing up Clinton. It’s tired. If one President can be heckled over something that happened in the 60’s, so can another. We had 8 years of lectures over the lack of importance of service in Viet Nam. Now it’s supposed to be an issue. > > I didn’t write the rules for present-day politics. Talk to Carville if you have a problem with it. 😛 1. Clinton didn’t do anything illegal, Bush did. Why should anyone give a shit if Bill Clinton protested the war or care where he did it? 2. The importance of service in Vietnam is NOT an issue. My issue is about the hypocrisy of conservatives, If you really want to punish deserters then punish ALL the deserters. Don’t tell me you care about people fulfilling their obligations to the Military after you voted two times for a deserter. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/39 "2006-03-13T05:13:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yes, I saw _Fog of War_ (an excellent film, btw), but you misinterpret the quote. If we lost the war, and had been conquered by the other side, they probably would’ve been tried as war criminals. But not in a US court. So, for either of them to be behind bars, the US would have had to have been conquered by the North Vietnamese. Still want them behind bars under those conditions, comrade? 🙂 Actually, McNamara was quoting General Curtis ‘Bombs Away’ LeMay with regard to US conduct in the strategic firebombing of Japanese cities. Although the same rationale could be applied to the strategic bombing of North Vietnam (and even more stringently to the ‘secret’ bombing of Laos), McNamara was referring to WWII. I think you’d have a hard time making the case against McNamara; he was fulfilling the duties of his office as required by the President, and as it turns out, often under duress to continue prosecution of the war even as he protested both the necessity and expansion. He is somewhat evasive on the topic of culpability, but he’s also right when he says that the involvement in Viet Nam was the President’s responsiblity. Nonetheless, there has grown up a cult of people who make every effort–often to bizarre extreme–to demonize McNamara. If he’s to be held accountable for Viet Nam, so are any number of other officials who participated in the planning, promotion, and persecution of that war. Oddly enough, one rarely hears such vitirol against Kennedy (who engaged us in Viet Nam over Eisenhower’s warnings), and Johnson (who progressively widened the war). But nothing that McNamara did was in violation of US statutes and you’d have a hard time making the case that it violated international conventions, either. It was a truely terrible war, and while it does not reduce his ultimate responsiblity for his part in it, McNamara derives some very timely and pertinent lessons from it. Kissinger is wanted “in pursuit of inquiries” by several nations, and is specifically named in a case involving Pinochet in an Argentine court. You can get some sparse details from [Wikipedia article on Operation Condor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Henry_Kissenger#Accusations_of_war_crimes_and_legal_difficulties). There’s a much stronger case against Kissinger; he clearly performed some actions that are at least extralegal in American courts and are blatantly illegal within the domains of other nations. “Crimes against humanity” is a sufficiently vague accusation that one could conceivably charge Kissinger with it, and perhaps it even fits, but I doubt he’ll ever see the inside of a courtroom, much less a jail cell. The US won’t–and most probably–can’t forcibly extradite him, and to do so would open the US to questions on our national actions around the world. As for the deserter: as a volunteer, he really has no ethical claim on which to base his abscondence. It’s unlikely he’ll receive more than a token penalty; a suspended sentance and a dishonorable discharge, probably. Meh. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/40 "2006-03-13T05:15:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What exactly about my statement indicates a whoosh, or makes you hope that it is a whoosh? Laws are there to maintain social order, not some sort of way to force someone to accept arbitrary punishment for arbitrary actions. Imprisoning this man does nothing to benefit society, except those that take joy in petty vendictive behavior. Tell me what’s arbitrary about voluntary service and we can start with the discussion. Enlistment is a contract. You decide if it will be 2, 3, 4 or 5 years. You get to decide. Show me some personnel that are serving against their will and I’ll sell the farm to fund your fight. For now I’ll trust that the volunteer army is just that. Volunteers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=3)