# On making beds and lying in them: Vietnam deserter arrested. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117 "2006-03-13T01:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/81 "2006-03-13T11:42:07Z")
> [@Mellivora capensis](#): > > Does a 19 year old have full contractual capacity in the US? Great question. Yep. At the age of 19, you are considered fully competant to join the military. You can’t crack open a beer without being arrested for underage drinking, but you are considered fully capable of putting your very life on the line for your country. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/82 "2006-03-13T11:44:37Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > No, it’s not a job just like any other. > > The reason it is different from walking out of a job at McDonald’s is because desertion can cost lives and harm natoinal defense. It can, but does it always? I think the actual effect on combat should be taken into consideration in sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/83 "2006-03-13T11:44:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > 1. Clinton didn’t do anything illegal, Bush did. Why should anyone give a shit if Bill Clinton protested the war or care where he did it? Cite? Last time I checked Clinton was never convicted of purjury or obstruction of justice, and that’s the big liberal justification for that argument that Clinton committed no crimes. Well, Bush was never convicted of any crime involving his absence from his military duties either, so he obviously committed no crime. > [@](#): > > 1. The importance of service in Vietnam is NOT an issue. My issue is about the hypocrisy of conservatives, If you really want to punish deserters then punish ALL the deserters. Don’t tell me you care about people fulfilling their obligations to the Military after you voted two times for a deserter. There’s no mechanism for punishing Bush. Whatever may have happened his CO didn’t take the actions that would be necessary, back then, to get him punished. Now that it’s decades later there is obviously not near enough evidence to sustain any sort of punishment. It’d be akin to reopening the Jack the Ripper case, it’s a waste of public funds because no resolution could ever be reached given the evidence at hand and the current position of the perp. Jack being dead and Bush being untouchable. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/84 "2006-03-13T11:56:36Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > _sigh_ > > He volunteered for service. He enlisted. Enlistment is basically a contract for service. > > By not fulfilling the contract he signed, he was in violation of it. He was in violation of not serving his obligation to the US. A pain in the ass? Depends on how you look at it, I guess. I’ve never heard of enlistment papers that have an “opt-out” clause. > > You don’t get to sign a contract and then decide you don’t like it after doing so. Well, you can, but only if you have an agent. The government doesn’t deal with agents. That contract is arbitrary. They decide if you don’t have to fulfill the commitment. And if it’s found you have reason to not have to fulfill the obligation, you’re likely in for a rude awakening when you hit the civilian world. Anything short of an honorable discharge is tough to make up for. > > Enlisting is a choice. When you enlist you know you’re commiting to a number of years in the military. You also understand that you’re going to be trained to fight a war if needed. That’s the point of a military. To fight wars if needed. It’s not fun, and I’d prefer nobody fights, but that’s what it is. > > If people could enlist, then refuse to fight because they don’t feel like it, what the hell would be the point of having a military? > > Seriously. I’d like an answer to that. If the military is voluntary, and the soldiers could refuse to fight for whatever reason, what’s the point of having a military? Taking it a step further, we have the perfect argument for gun ownership. And militias. If the shit hits the fan, and the military can’t be counted on, we need people that have arms and are willing to defend their land. Granted, up here we’d be fending off the Canadians, at least for the first few months. After that? Well, who knows what may come. > > Every country must depend on the military for security. Every country. If you can’t depend on your country’s military, you’ll never be secure. > > If we disband the US military, can we still feel safe? I’m not talking about terrorist threats. I’m talking about Mexico and Canada. I realize our military force erases just about any thought of a takeover from either country, but without a standing army, what would stop them? > > That’s a major reach as I’m sure (or at least I hope) it will never be an issue. But if the military personnel can decide to opt out whenever they wish, who’s left to defend the country? > > Do we really want to set a precedence that a soldier can leave service whenever he or she wants to? Excellent post, and the liberals that seem to support the idea that soldiers should get veto power over what they do based on their feelings about a given conflict need to think about what that means. What if the military was a highly anti-Semitic place in 1941? And soldiers from top to bottom were saying, “We’ll fight and die to kill those bastards that bombed Pearl Harbor, but we’ll all put down our guns and walk home if you send us to save a bunch of Jews.” Individual soldiers can’t be allowed to pick and choose what orders they obey or what wars they fight, it undermines the entire concept of a military _serving_ a country and a civilian government as opposed to a military that does pretty much the reverse. Soldiers that get to decide when and how they will be used are basically taking for themselves all authority in making national defense decisions for the country. That would make the military a more powerful force than the electorate and the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/85 "2006-03-13T11:58:38Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’m completely serious here. If he was a deserter, jail him. I have no doubt there are competent lawyers in this country that will take the case. If we have a President that deserted, prosecute. hands down, no matter what party. > > I’ve said before, I have serious issues with Bush and some of his policies. The military stuff? Meh. I’ve seen this shit play out for over 10 years now. After the '92 election, military service isn’t an issue for a President. That’s why I keep tryng to point out the hypocricy of the ANG schtick. It’s not an issue. Service isn’t important. > > Protest your country on foreign soil? Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. But hardly a base point to start pointing fingers. I’d sure appreciate a link about a protest on American soil. I don’t expect one, and I really don’t care that it won’t be provided. > > The guy in the OP link actively left the country he swore to serve. That’s proven. Whatever defelction you want to post doesn’t justify it. His actions are his own. Excusing it because of a political beef doesn’t make your argument right. Another reason it would be difficult to pin desertion on Bush is Bush could say in his defense that the Air National Guard apparently never considered him a deserter since he was properly discharged and such. In general a deserter is in a limbo discharge-wise because that’s stuff that isn’t resolved until they come back into custody at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/86 "2006-03-13T12:02:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If it’s illegal under international law, it’s illegal. Most international law doesn’t specify punishment. Which means talking about legality/illegality is almost impossible. It’s like trying to prosecute someone for a crime which is only defined as a crime but has no statutory provisions detailing punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/87 "2006-03-13T12:03:01Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > No, it’s not a job just like any other. > > The reason it is different from walking out of a job at McDonald’s is because desertion can cost lives and harm natoinal defense. > > To pretend you don’t understand the difference is ludicrous obtuseness. If you aren’t pretending then you’re hopelessly stupid and not worth debating with any further. And staying can do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/88 "2006-03-13T12:05:00Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Great question. Yep. At the age of 19, you are considered fully competant to join the military. You can’t crack open a beer without being arrested for underage drinking, but you are considered fully capable of putting your very life on the line for your country. Indeed. There is a reason why 21 is generally regarded as a minimum age under contract law. I think we are being unnecessarily harsh in judging this man. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/89 "2006-03-13T12:06:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And staying can do the same thing. Um, and your point is? Sure, staying in the military may cause problems too. This guy could have been insane, maybe he would have shot a bunch of his fellow soldiers or even innocent civilians. Maybe he would have done something contrary to national defense. It’s like a surgeon stopping in the middle of a delicate heart procedure and watching the patient die. That surgeon is going to go up on criminal charges. Just because finishing the surgery also had X% chance of also ending in the patients death doesn’t change the fact we need to have laws that make it clear stopping in the middle just because you don’t feel like its worth finishing is going to have consequences, and serious ones, due to the serious consequences that can come about because of your desertion. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/90 "2006-03-13T12:08:03Z")
> [@Mellivora capensis](#): > > Indeed. > > There is a reason why 21 is generally regarded as a minimum age under contract law. I think we are being unnecessarily harsh in judging this man. So now we need to link responsibility with the drinking age? I guess in some countries children 12 and younger should be considered legal adults under contract law. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/91 "2006-03-13T12:31:14Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > So now we need to link responsibility with the drinking age? > > I guess in some countries children 12 and younger should be considered legal adults under contract law. **Martin** , my point has nothing to do with the drinking age, and everything to do with contractual capacity. The prevailing argument in this thread is that he willingly and voluntarily entered into a contract. And yet what is being overlooked is that he did so at the age of 19, which is generally regarded as a “minor” age. This man is being held responsible for a contract he entered into as a minor. I think there is something intrinsically wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/92 "2006-03-13T12:43:23Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Um, and your point is? > It’s like a surgeon stopping in the middle of a delicate heart procedure and watching the patient die. It’s not like that at all. The man felt that the war was wrong and was doing more harm than good. It’s more like a surgeon walking away from a heart transplant because he realized the heart was fine and he didn’t have all the instruments to perform the operation anyway. > [@](#): > > That surgeon is going to go up on criminal charges. Just because finishing the surgery also had X% chance of also ending in the patients death doesn’t change the fact we need to have laws that make it clear stopping in the middle just because you don’t feel like its worth finishing is going to have consequences, and serious ones, due to the serious consequences that can come about because of your desertion. I’d bet nothing much will happen to him. Plenty of deserters have walked. Or have had minimal punishment. As it should be. I’d have paid for him to desert. The war was wrong and poorly executed. Fuck the rules. He did the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/93 "2006-03-13T12:45:08Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Shrug. The guy’s biggest mistake was not marrying someone who could create enough political discomfort for the U.S., like Sgt. Jenkins did. > > If it’s handled like the Jenkins case was, the U.S. gov’t will stomp and shout and rattle all the sabres it wants, sentence him to 30 days confined to base, maybe with an additional suspended sentence, and then just let him go back to whatever he was doing before. That’s quite an oversimplification of that particular case. For one thing, that’s not what Jenkins’ sentence was. He was sentenced to six months confinement in a military prison, reduction to the lowest Enlisted pay grade, and awarded a Bad Conduct Discharge. A pre-trial agreement limited the time in prison to 30 days. That’s in prison, not “confined to base.” [Here’s a link for you.](http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=24438&archive=true) And he hasn’t gone “back to whatever he was doing before.” He’s living in Japan under the sponsorship of both the Japanese government and his Japanese spouse. While I disagree very much with the man and think he was a coward when he deserted and is still a coward today, I don’t think it helps to mischaracterize his case. The United States Army didn’t give in to the supposed political pressure. After all, the Japanese government was trying to get the Army to drop the charges completely. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/94 "2006-03-13T12:45:31Z")
Sorry 'bout the coding. It’d be great if someone could fix that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/95 "2006-03-13T12:46:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t have a problem with deserters. The Military is just a job like any other and anybody should have the right to quit a job. I don’t see it as being any different than walking out of a job at McDonald’s. > > Still, if they’re going to insist on rounding up Vietnam deserters I hope they don’t forget to pay a visit to Pennsylvania Avenue. Got any evidence that’s actually the case? After all, the man was a member of one component of the Armed Forces and received an actual discharge from same. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/96 "2006-03-13T12:56:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You think that over half of America should be criminally sanctioned for their past crimes, no matter how minor and no matter how long ago they occured? Come on, you can’t seriously think expending all of those resources, wasting all of that time, and disrupting all of those lives is a good idea. > > I hardly think “in thirty years I might be arrested on vacation” registers in someones decision process compared with things like, I could be arrested tommorow for this crime. When I crack open a beer at a party I sure as hell don’t think, “Hey you know what, I might be arrested for this in 30 years when I am 50, I better not.” That concern is much, much, much less pressing than the one “I might be arrested in 5 minutes when the cops bust in.” I’d venture to say that 5 minutes is well within the statute of limitations on prosecuting someone for underage drinking. Desertion, though, IIRC, has no statute of limitations. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/97 "2006-03-13T13:39:17Z")
Sentence him to retroactive forty years of transportation/deportation to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/98 "2006-03-13T14:00:09Z")
I’m a liberal, and I’m for his arrest and charging. Do I have to revoke my bleeding heart license? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/99 "2006-03-13T14:00:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Sentence him to retroactive forty years of transportation/deportation to Canada. Man, sentenced to 40 years in Canada? So much for the Eighth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/100 "2006-03-13T14:07:33Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’d have paid for him to desert. The war was wrong and poorly executed. Fuck the rules. He did the right thing. Wrong. The “right” thing would have been to not voluntarily enlist in the first place, to desert a few months later in opposition to a war that had been raging for years before he fucking enlisted. THAT would have been the right thing. All of this “unjust war” stuff may be relevent to those who were drafted, but it falls pretty fucking flat when the guy chose to join up after the war had been on for quite some time, and was already at no risk of being drafted, given his Canadian citizenship. You sign up for the armed forces, you are making a commitment, and it is very important for the proper functioning of the forces that those commitments stick HARD. You cannot have a functioning army when individual soldiers can, without fear of punishment, decide entirely on their own what to do, where to go and when to leave. Desertion is a crime with no statute of limitations, and one that is taken very seriously. He should have taken the 10 minutes to research it before deciding to come to the US for holiday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=6)