# On making beds and lying in them: Vietnam deserter arrested. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117 "2006-03-13T01:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/101 "2006-03-13T14:31:30Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > now I say they should throw the book at him. They should shoot him, then? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/102 "2006-03-13T14:33:35Z")
Thank you for the link, **Monty** , but beyond the 30 days in prison vs. 30 confined to base, I don’t think I mischaracterized the matter at all. After all the sabre-rattling that was done about how Jenkins was a traitor to his country and an example needed to be made of him, the punishment he received was trivial. If that’s an example of not caving to political pressure, then I don’t see what bed the OP thinks Allen Abney is going to be lying in. Jenkins was a volunteer when he deserted, just like Abney (in part over fears that he would be sent to Vietnam). Unlike Abney, however, he went over to a hostile country and spent the years that ensued providing aid and training to their soldiers. I don’t see how Abney could receive a harsher punishment than Jenkins without it looking obvious that the US agreed to look the other way for diplomatic reasons. We’ll have to wait and see how this turns out. “doing whatever he was doing before” referred to the Abney case in OP. I didn’t mean that Jenkins was going to go back to teaching English in a NorK prison. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/103 "2006-03-13T14:50:55Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > They should shoot him, then? Ha! You think I forgot about the previous conversation we had on this topic? You’re not as slick as you think you are, dude. “Throwing the book at someone” is a euphemism for stern punishment. He committed an egregious crime (in my opinion) and should get more than just a handslap. However, this is certainly _not_ worth the death penalty in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/104 "2006-03-13T14:56:14Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > A cite where Clinton protested the war while in the US. And yes, you did know what I was referring to. You’re usually wrong, but you’re not dishonest. I never claimed that Clinton protested the war in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/105 "2006-03-13T14:56:32Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Ha! You think I forgot about the previous conversation we had on this topic? You’re not as slick as you think you are, dude. > > “Throwing the book at someone” is a euphemism for stern punishment. He committed an egregious crime (in my opinion) and should get more than just a handslap. However, this is certainly _not_ worth the death penalty in any way, shape, or form. Every time I’ve ever seen the expression “throw the book at him” used, it meant that the maximum sentence for that particular crime should be imposed. In this case: death. [Cite.](http://www.clichesite.com/content.asp?which=tip+2824) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/106 "2006-03-13T15:03:43Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Oddly enough, one rarely hears such vitirol against Kennedy (who engaged us in Viet Nam over Eisenhower’s warnings), and Johnson (who progressively widened the war). Johnson? JOHNSON? Are you daft? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/107 "2006-03-13T15:04:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They were irrelevant and sophist and evasive of the real point. > > As opposed to salient. > > Who says they can’t be prosecuted? > > Sophism. > > Yes it does and the bombing of Cambodia was illegal. > > You’re the one who wants to invent a new definition of “legality” just so you can avoid having to admit that Kissinger was a war criminal. My defintion of “legality” is that to be charged with a crime, that crime must violate a specific statute. How is your definition different, and how is mine an invention? This discussion started with your post: > [@DtC](#): > > Why does it have to be US law? Are war crimes and political assasinations not really crimes in your book? Are you familiar with the illegal bombing of Cambodia? I’m trying to understand what you are proposing. Can you spell out the procedure by which either of those two men would be prosecuted? Who would arrest them and in what court would they be charged with which specific crime. I’m especially interested in the part where the crime is not a vioaltion of any US law. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/108 "2006-03-13T15:25:13Z")
US law is irrelevant. The willingness of the international community to prosecute is irrelevant. Neither of those things have anything to do with whether Kissinger committed war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/109 "2006-03-13T15:48:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > US law is irrelevant. The willingness of the international community to prosecute is irrelevant. Neither of those things have anything to do with whether Kissinger committed war crimes. Well, thank Og we’re not in a thread discussing Kissinger. And as a general plea, can we stop using the term “International Community”? It’s as absurd as jumbo shrimp. Just something that pisses me off. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/110 "2006-03-13T15:52:02Z")
We had already established precedent before the Vietnam “escalation”. Any of this ring a bell, **John**? > [@](#): > > The following acts, or any of them, are crimes coming within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal for which there shall be individual responsibility: > > (a) CRIMES AGAINST PEACE: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing; > > (b) WAR CRIMES: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity; > > ©CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated. > > Leaders, organizers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any persons in execution of such plan. But if you want to defend the concept of “winner’s justice” instead of any overriding moral principles, you just go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/111 "2006-03-13T16:27:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > US law is irrelevant. The willingness of the international community to prosecute is irrelevant. Neither of those things have anything to do with whether Kissinger committed war crimes. I’m still confused. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your first two statments are true. Can you flesh out these “war crimes” that Kissinger committed? What were they and how do we decide that they were crimes? I’m genuinely curious. For instance: you mentioned the bombing of Cambodia. What is it in the bombing of Cambodia that makes it a crime while the bombing of North Vietnam is (presumably) not a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/112 "2006-03-13T17:56:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If the U.S. government wasn’t chasing the guy all this time how did his name even come up for arrest? They caught him at the border, where he was entering the U.S. en route to some sort of gathering in Reno. I suspect that older open cases are in the process of being added to the databases, and more people with very old unanswered charges will find themselves getting into trouble when they attempt to cross a border or otherwise come into contact with law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/113 "2006-03-13T19:19:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Doesn’t matter. You can’t be charged in a US court with “violating the GC”. Nor did I ever say that he’d be charged in a US court. Merely that there’s been talk of indicting him for well on 30 years now. More to the point, I already [explicitly stated](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7190004&postcount=20) that I didn’t even think that warcrimes could be tried anywhere except in an international setting and thus the example of Kissinger didn’t correlate perfectly with our deserter from the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/114 "2006-03-13T19:20:11Z")
Hmmm. I don’t think this is such a hard case. This guy wasn’t subject to the draft because of his Canadian citizenship. But he enlisted anyway, in 1968. Then he deserted, and went back home to Canada. And when Carter offered deserters amnesty, he didn’t bother to apply for it. Seems like he needs to get some jail time and a dishonorable discharge. Then send him back to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/115 "2006-03-13T19:49:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And when Carter offered deserters amnesty, he didn’t bother to apply for it. Did Carter offer deserters amnesty or just draft dodgers? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/116 "2006-03-13T19:52:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > . > Beacuse a US court can only prosecute against violations of US laws. Can you cite a precedent of someone being prosecute in a US court of law for something other than a violoation of US law? Are the prisoners in Guantanamo being prosecuted in a US court for violations of US law? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/117 "2006-03-13T20:05:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Hmmm. > > I don’t think this is such a hard case. This guy wasn’t subject to the draft because of his Canadian citizenship. But he enlisted anyway, in 1968. Then he deserted, and went back home to Canada. And when Carter offered deserters amnesty, he didn’t bother to apply for it. > > Seems like he needs to get some jail time and a dishonorable discharge. Then send him back to Canada. Actually, he didn’t become a Canadian citizen until 1977 so he _was_ subject to the draft, but that’s irrelevant because he volunteered. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/118 "2006-03-13T20:06:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Did Carter offer deserters amnesty or just draft dodgers? See Post #26. :rolleyes: All the way back on Page 1, so maybe you just forgot it. I’m a little confused on his Canadian citizenship. If he was born with dual citizenship, why does the linked story say he got it in 1977? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/119 "2006-03-13T20:43:17Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Oddly enough, one rarely hears such vitriol against Kennedy (who engaged us in Viet Nam over Eisenhower’s warnings), and Johnson (who progressively widened the war). > [@Ludovic](#): > > Johnson? JOHNSON? Are you daft? Kennedy? KENNEDY? Are you daft? From [here](http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm), which is really [this](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/timeline/index.html). **1945** Ho Chi Minh Creates Provisional Government: Following the surrender of Japan to Allied forces, Ho Chi Minh and his People’s Congress create the National Liberation Committee of Vietnam to form a provisional government. Japan transfers all power to Ho’s Vietminh. Ho Declares Independence of Vietnam British Forces Land in Saigon, Return Authority to French **First American Dies in Vietnam** : Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey, head of American OSS mission, was killed by Vietminh troops while driving a jeep to the airport. Reports later indicated that his death was due to a case of mistaken identity – he had been mistaken for a Frenchman.{Freed from Japanese colonialism and promptly returned to French colonialism. A bright and shining moment in the West’s defense of human freedom. Thus begins the War for the Independence of Vietnam, and the USA’s involvement.} **1950** Chinese, Soviets Offer Weapons to Vietminh US Pledges $15M to Aid French: **The United States sends $15 million dollars in military aid** to the French for the war in Indochina. Included in the aid package is **a military mission and military advisors**. **1954** Battle of Dienbienphu Begins: A force of 40,000 heavily armed Vietminh lay seige to the French garrison at Dienbienphu. Using Chinese artillery to shell the airstrip, the Vietminh make it impossible for French supplies to arrive by air. It soon becomes clear that the French have met their match. **Eisenhower Cites “Domino Theory” Regarding Southeast Asia: Responding to the defeat of the French by the Vietminh at Dienbienphu, President Eisenhower outlines the Domino Theory: "You have a row of dominoes set up. You knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly."** French Defeated at Dien Bien Phu **1956** French Leave Vietnam **US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training\*\*\*\*1960**Kennedy Elected President: John F. Kennedy narrowly defeats Richard Nixon for the presidency We were already in Viet Nam, when Kennedy became President. [In 1968, Abney was a 19-year-old marine when he fled to Canada because he didn’t want to fight in Vietnam.](http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/12/marine-deserter-060312.html) Hmmm, what was happening in '68, that might make getting out of the marines, and the US, sound like a really good idea? **1968** **January** North Vietnamese Launch Tet Offensive: In a show of military might that catches the US military off guard, North Vietnamese and Vietcong forces sweep down upon several key cities and provinces in South Vietnam, including its capital, Saigon. Within days, American forces turn back the onslaught and recapture most areas. From a military point of view, Tet is a huge defeat for the Communists, but turns out to be a political and psychological victory. The US military’s assessment of the war is questioned and the “end of tunnel” seems very far off. **February** Battle for Hue: The Battle for Hue wages for 26 days as US and South Vietnamese forces try to recapture the site seized by the Communists during the Tet Offensive. Previously, a religious retreat in the middle of a war zone, Hue was nearly leveled in a battle that left nearly all of its population homeless. Following the US and ARVN victory, mass graves containing the bodies of thousands of people who had been executed during the Communist occupation are discovered. Westmoreland Requests 206,000 More Troops My Lai Massacre: On March 16, the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the village of My Lai. “This is what you’ve been waiting for – search and destroy – and you’ve got it,” said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military’s chain of command, and an already divided American public. **March** LBJ Announces He Won’t Run: With his popularity plummeting and dismayed by Senator Eugene McCarthy’s strong showing in the New Hampshire primary, President Lyndon Johnson stuns the nation and announces that he will not be a candidate for re-election. **April** MLK Slain in Memphis **May** Paris Peace Talks Begin: Following a lengthy period of debate and discussion, North Vietnamese and American negotiators agree on a location and start date of peace talks. Talks are slated to begin in Paris on May 10 with W. Averell Harriman representing the United States, and former Foreign Minister Xuan Thuy heading the North Vietnamese delegation. **June** Robert Kennedy Assassinated **August** Upheaval at Democratic Convention in Chicago: As the frazzled Democratic party prepares to hold its nominating convention in Chicago, city officials gear up for a deluge of demonstrations. Mayor Richard Daley orders police to crackdown on antiwar protests. As the nation watched on television, the area around the convention erupts in violence. **November** Richard Nixon Elected President: Running on a platform of “law and order,” Richard Nixon barely beats out Hubert Humphrey for the presidency. Nixon takes just 43.4 percent of the popular vote, compared to 42.7 percent for Humphrey. Third-party candidate George Wallace takes the remaining percentage of votes.Anybody remember how long Lt Calley spent in prison for the premeditated murder of 22 infants, children, women, and old men, and assault with intent to murder a child of about 2 years of age? (Answer (paroled, after serving three and a half years) Now, tell me again, how much time does Abney deserve? Anybody got a cite for the section of tUCMJ that deals with desertion? CMC fnord! [right]{DarkRed} **Bold** & Underlined = CMC[/right] ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117/120 "2006-03-13T20:55:40Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Actually, he didn’t become a Canadian citizen until 1977 so he _was_ subject to the draft, but that’s irrelevant because he volunteered. [ > [@Airman Doors](#): > > [url=“[Canada.Com | Homepage | Canada.Com](http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=08ec806e-2c4d-4d06-9604-123af7ad435c&k=88511)”]More on this]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7189915&postcount=14](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7189915&postcount=14)): > > > [@](#): > > > > Born in Louisville, Ky., Abney came to Canada with his family in 1959, when he was 10 years old, Jessica said. He maintained dual citizenship, however, and, in 1968, enlisted in the U.S. Marines. Jessica said her father fled to Canada a few months later, along with thousands of draft-age American men who were opposed to the Vietnam war. > > … 😕 CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-making-beds-and-lying-in-them-vietnam-deserter-arrested/348117.md?page=7)