I don’t know that any of them have been prosecuted, and none of them is a US citizen. All we’re doing is deciding whether or not to continue to detain them. AFAIK, none has been charged or sentenced (in a legal sense) with anything, nor will any of them ever be.
From the original article, which is also the very first quote, right there in the OP:
So, which one is it? Actually, even if he were a “dual” citizen he’d still be obligated to do his time, so it doesn’t much matter.
Also, your timeline is utterly irrelevant. A more readable timeline for people that care:
1954: Vietnam partitioned pending elections in 1956. Elections don’t happen due to the intransigence of the South, who were allies of convenience.
1954-1964: A low-level war involving a relatively small number of US advisers takes place with small numbers of US casualties compared with what is to come.
1964: Johnson gets the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution passed in August, engaging us in what is essentially a full-scale war that costs 58,000+ lives on the US side and countless deaths for the Vietnamese.
1968: 4 years into a full-scale war that has been plastered all over the newspaper and television every day and has been protested all over the country, a volunteer deserts to Canada.
2006: Previously mentioned deserter, having failed to avail himself of programs that would provide amnesty, having failed to fulfill his obligation as a volunteer, apparently forgets that he is a criminal, crosses the border, and is promptly arrested.
That pretty much sums it up. I’m sure that some of you will try to dispute some of that, but I’m ready for it. Bottom line: Johnson took a very small foreign policy matter and turned it into a clusterfuck. Eisenhower and Kennedy were smart enough to know better.
That’s basically, the point I was making.
CMC fnord!
Being restricted to the base and being incarcerated in prison is not a trivial difference. Also non-trivial is the simple fact you neglected to mention that he was booted out with a Bad Conduct Discharge.
I don’t recall the “traitor” sabre-rattling except from those who are truly miffed at the man for desertion. From what I understand, he did not commit, and thus was not charged with, treason.
I’m unsure of the OP’s stance other than that I agree that Allen Abney should be punished for his crime. Said crime is desertion. As to caving into political pressure, that would’ve been the case had the US Army not prosecuted Jenkins at all. That’s what the Japanese government was trying to get. Note, mind you, that it’s the Japanese government who’s now supporting that particular cretin, not the US.
Yes. However, in both cases, the deserter fled the jurisdiction and then returned to a jurisdiction in which they could be apprehended and prosecuted. In Jenkins’ case, there was no pardon given to persons with similar conditions. In Abney’s case, those who wished to do so, could have applied for a pardon. For Jenkins, there was a pre-trial agreement and he pleaded guilty at his court-martial. Let’s wait and see what kind of pre-trial agreement Abney gets.
As far as I’m concerned, that coward (Jenkins) should be back in North Korea teaching English or whatever it is is masters (IMHO North Korea doesn’t have citizens, its populace all are slaves of its leader) wanted him to teach. I may have missed it, but I was under the impression that Jenkins was teaching English to North Korea soldiers, not prisoners.
Dual citizenship doesn’t relieve one of the obligation of performing conscripted service. Actually, if the other country also has conscription, then dual citizenship gives you a double whammy in regards to the draft.
Things I’m wondering
Why did the guy join the marines anyway?
(You can’t get drafted into the marines, right?)
What opportunities for amnesty were available to deserting marines? Deserting draftees? Deserting army “volunteers”? (I put it in quotes because many volunteered when they knew they would be drafted anyway.)
Roughly speaking and setting all hyperbole aside, what sort of punishment does Airman think would be proportionate? I’m not asking “What he’s hoping for”.
What sort of punishment is this guy facing in practice?
Would the guy have been arrested if he crossed the border, say, 20 years ago?
Why did he desert anyway and what was the context of his desertion?
I strongly doubt that he ever expected to return to active service or receive his military pension, and he isn’t voicing any intention to come back to the US. I’m not seeing how a Bad Conduct Discharge is anything serious for him.
Well, I believe there are levels of caving between all or nothing, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
And yes, the Japanese gov’t is supporting him and his wife (and their kids, depending on how old they are), as well as all the other returnees. There really wasn’t much in the way of negative feeling here for Jenkins, so bringing the family together has been mostly good domestic PR for Koizumi.
Drafts are implemented to populate all branches. Marines were no exception. They were drafted as well, though in smaller numbers because of the branch’s setup. From what I know, draftees often didn’t know what branch they were going into until after they passed the tests. They showed up, went through the rigamorale, then found out where they were going.
For everyone justifying the guy in the OP in this thread, let me ask you a favor. Whatever your personal views on war are, whatever you think of Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon or Bush, whatever you think of Viet Nam or Iraq, keep one thing in mind in this case.
The guy walked into a recruitment office and signed his name to the enlistment papers. He made the choice to join the military. I’m going to assume he had the common sense of a bed post and realized that military personnel have been, on a time or two in the last few thousand years, been called up for battle.
Unless he can show some document that stated he could pick and choose whether to enter a conflict, he doesn’t warrant defense of desertion.
The Hollywood lines in movies usually have a DI stating that a Marine’s heart belongs to Jesus, but his ass belongs to the Corps. (Full Metal Jacket is the obvious one). It’s one of the things they got right. That’s it. When you enlist, you’re agreeing to follow the orders of your superiors. That holds true in all branches of the military.
If you voluntarily enlist, then decide you don’t feel like honoring your obligation? Meh. You knew the consequence. If you were drafted against your will? I can sympathize with why you fled the country. I don’t agree with it, but I’m not here to say you were wrong in avoiding a war you deemed wrong. Or didn’t want to be put in harm’s way.
But dammit, if you signed the contract, honor it. And if you flee the country you swore to defend then expect my sympathy? Fuck you. 20 years in Leavenworth seems to be a popular choice. I can live with that. So long as it’s not retroactive to when you broke your promise to serve.
For the case in the OP: Do you not realize that voluntarily crossing over the southern border of Canada and going in a generally southern direction is, in fact, coming back to the United States? It doesn’t matter that he only intended coming for a visit. What matters is that he entered a jurisdiction which has the capability and legal authority to apprehend him and prosecute him for a crime of which he was accused.
I’m also wondering what the Canadian government, especially the military, would think of his status as a deserter from an allied nation if he were to apply to work for said government.
For the Jenkins case: Jenkins voluntarily entered a jurisdiction in which the US military has the capability and legal authority to prosecute him for a crime of which he was accused. He only entered that after his, and his family, and the Japanese government, failed to get the US to say, “Sure, we’ll give him a pass on that.”
Speaking of good PR for your PM…that dude’s great at doing PR at home but stinks at keeping his allied happy. This is just one small example of it. BTW, you do realize that Jenkins, with his status as a convict, isn’t actually eligible to enter Japan? But, then, the PM loves to ignore actual law when it comes to home PR.
There’s also this nifty thing called mitigation (or is it extenuation?). The sentencing authority is usually required to consider quite a number of factors in determining the sentence.
The bit above starting with “speaking of good PR” should’ve appeared beneath the quote which now appears at the bottom of my post #130.
According to the Province, Mar.12, this is why he enlisted -
"Allen, who was born in Kentucky but has lived in Canada since he was 10, joined the Marines voluntarily when his brother was drafted, figuring he too would be compelled to serve. His brother stayed in Canada as a concientious objector. Allen completed basic training in Camp Lejuene, North Carolina.
Before he could be shipped overseas, he took a weekend break in Mexico then a bus all the way to Vancouver."
So, it sounds like the guy joined up under the assumpion that he’d have to serve anyway - pretty close to joining under duress. It also sounds like he didn’t get a lot of benefits out of it. No pension, no medical, no Veterens goodies.
Sorry, but I’m having a hard time seeing just what he owes the States. Canada educated him and gave him free medical care, he met his wife here, his family is here. Yes, he deserted from the Marines, but he didn’t flee to a foreign country. He went home. I don’t quite see what he was doing in the American Forces anyway.
That said, I do think he needs to answer the charges and get this dealt with. A contract is a contract. If he needs to serve a short stretch in the military jail, well that’s that.
Huh? His assumption isn’t duress by the government.
Who’d figure that he’d get any benefits for being a deserter?
For one thing, he owes his country (mind you, a dual national has more than one country; however, that’s really not the issue here as the man enlisted) his contractually obligated service. He voluntarily incurred that obligated service.
He voluntarily enlisted as a citizen of the United States of America. It’s actually 100% irrelevant to that issue that he holds another citizenship. There are also those who voluntarily enlist into the Armed Forces of the United States of America without having US citizenship at all and, if they desert and are captured, they are prosecuted for desertion also.
Agreed.
Sorry, I was talking about Jenkins. I really should remember to include names when I’m writing.
I distinctly remember pamphlets being posted in various locations in Toronto back in 77/78 and it was for DD’s and Deserters, I can’t be too sure if there was conditions though.
Declan
It’s okay, Sublight. As it is, I have little–if any–sympathy for either deserter.
My bad. I thought it was only draft dodgers, but the order covered deserters, too as long as they applied.
Okay, I’m going to reply to Monty’s post 133, but I’m not quoting all of it - don’t want to give the hamsters heart attacks.
Point 1 - Duress. By duress, I was referring to the draft, which is hardly voluntary. I can see where a nineteen year old might figure he was in it anyway and join up to save the hassle.
Point 2 - I was referencing Duffer’s post 29, in which he commented on people joining up to get benefits such as college education, pension etc and then deserting when things got tough. Yes, I should have quoted, but I haven’t figured out how to quote from two sources in one post. I always lose the whole thing.
Point 3 - What he owes the States. As I see it, military service is something you do because you country has educated you, kept you safe through it’s laws and protection, fed you and provided medical care. In this case, Canada had done that, not the USA.
As to the rest of it, yes, having signed the contract, we are in agreement that he does have to deal with it.
I hope this clairifys my points a little more. I was pretty much posting in my sleep last night and of couse I usually stay out of this kind of debate anyway.
What do I think would be proportional? The length of his unserved enlistment in Leavenworth. If he won’t fulfill his service then he should be compelled to as punishment. That means no more than 4 years in prison, probably much less than that given the varying length of enlistments back then and the fact that he did serve some of it prior to his desertion.
First, as to your earlier post, “why” he enlisted is irrelevant. I’m sure there are many different reasons for many different people.
Wow. So the only countries who should anyone to serve in the military are socialist? How about: protect you, make education available to you, create an environment where you can feed yourself, and avail yourself of good medical care when needed? You know, like the US.