# On Re-reading all of Robert Heinlein via The Virginia Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729 "2012-10-14T23:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/401 "2013-08-07T18:59:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > \*Door \*has always been one of my favorites. The “ick” factor about marrying a younger woman whom he knew when she was 11 doesn’t bother me in the least, because it was never portrayed as Davis being a perv or lusting after the young’un. It was more a case of soul mates doing what was necessary to be for each other, be it time travel or cold sleep. > > I have to admit a lot of the charm is because of Pete. I don’t get the “ick” factor either. My current wife was 4 years old when I started college. No I did not know her then. I had to waste some time with other, wrong women, but eventually it all came together. No cold sleep, quite a bit of time travel by just letting time elapse at it’s normal rate. My cat, in the Winter or when it is raining, makes me check each door to see it the weather is different outside one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/402 "2013-08-18T14:44:35Z")
**Friday** Volume XXIV of The Virginia Edition Another of Heinlein’s later works, this one is the second of the ‘late Heinlein’ novels that appeared in the 1980s. It was a nominee for the Hugo, the Locus and the Nebula awards. For the life of me, I can’t see why. In the end, this is a character study of a woman. Fine. But the character isn’t all that great. She’s constantly on the run and having her moves forced on her. She’s more a reactor than an actor. Along the entire route she runs (she spends most of the book on the move) she makes decisions tactically, but never strategically. She is, simply put, a protagonist who is not in charge of her own life. In the introduction, James and Patterson go far around the barn trying to define _Friday_ as a feminist work but I have trouble buying it. Yes, Friday the character is capable and smart, that’s nice. But two things work against perceiving the character as a feminist icon. First, she’s that way as a result of genetic manipulation. That’s certainly not the fault of the character but it does take away from seeing her as an example for others. Second, the overwhelming naivete shown by the character on several occasions. Friday is simply not a self-aware nor self-actualizing person (if I can wander into cant). Not unlike the Mary Cavanaugh character of The Puppet Masters - who is also a highly competent person in her own right but seems content to surrender that part of herself when a family situation comes along - Friday seems to think that holding her own value alone is secondary to the need to be a part of a family. Hell, at one point late in the book she states that she now knows she’s human because she had a human baby. In effect, the character is defining her value solely through the concept of childbirth and all of her other accomplishments fall by the wayside. Urgh. Dangerous territory for a male writer. Heck, even in the very end when she lists what she does in her new, quieter life, her position on her town council is ‘secretary’. That’s likely inadvertent but ugh, what a choice for a position for a soi-disant feminist character. Hell, at times Friday even appears childlike and simple in her response to others and situations. Some of that stems from her own insecurities - which stem from the prejudice her society shows against those people in their midst who are designed and not born through chance - but at other times it seems to stem from the character simply being childlike. That’s all well and good, but it’s not an example of what I would call feminism. Not even the rebelling-against-calcified-feminism that James and Patterson claim that Heinlein is attempting to confront. Honestly, Friday the character is interesting, but more in what she says and thinks than in anything she does. An interesting aside is her continual denigration of people she perceives as ‘amateur’. However, that seems to change depending on her mood. In the opening chapter, upon being captured and interrogated, a character, Pete, who is holding her allows her to hit the toilet when she needs to. She refers to Pete as being ‘amateurish’ while noting that making a captive break toilet training can be useful in breaking someone. Late in the book, she again meets Pete and refers to his boss as an ‘amateur’ for disciplining Pete for allowing her to use the toilet. As a character study of an isolated woman attempting to regain control of herself, I suppose _Friday_ is worthwhile. But as an adventure yarn or as a novel that can grip the reader I find it lacking. The one place the book does shine, however, is in the worldbuilding. In the book, which is a direct in-universe descendent of the earlier novella _Gulf_, the United States and Canada have broken up into at least these nation-states: [ul] [li]Republique de Quebec[/li][li]British Canada[/li][li]The California Confederacy[/li][li]The Chicago Imperium[/li][li]Las Vegas Free State[/li][li]The Atlantic Union[/li][li]The Lone Star Republic[/li][li]The Kingdom of Mexico[/li][/ul] However, looming over it all is the existence of ultra-powerful multi-national corporations. While we - in our world - have concerns about how much influence corporations have, in the world of _Friday_ it’s much stronger. Corporations in _Friday_ field their own private armies and use them to enforce their will on other corporations and nation-states. Early in the book, Interworld (the employer of a supporting character) destroys Acapulco - and theoretically more than 1 million people according to the 2012 census of the metro area - and the perception is that Mexico was silly for not caving in earlier and forcing Interworld to take that step. Other interesting parts of the worldbuilding are the existence - and prejudice against - artificial persons (genetic constructs that look like humans) and living artifacts (genetic constructs that do not look like humans). _Friday_ herself is an AP and suffers from significant character issues deriving from the discrimination she fears even though she’s been successfully passing as a natural born human for most of her life. That insecurity is her driving force, the need for commonality and the acknowledgement of her humanity. Still, in the end it’s others who achieve this for her, not herself that does so. I could wish, if Heinlein were truly attempting to write a book to challenge the then-current perception of radical feminism, he had done so with a more dynamic character. Not since John Thomas Stuart XI of The Star Beast has there been a main character in a Heinlein novel so dedicated to falling into success as opposed to working to achieve. Still, the reintroduction of Hartley Baldwin of _Gulf_ and the display of the failure of _Gulf’s_ attempt to introduce an almost Neitzchean superman to take over the world is worth reading. Especially the fact that Baldwin never refers to it directly but does say that the civilization in which he operates is doomed but he is fighting a holding action to delay the inevitable. That rewards a Heinlein reader who has dived into his older work when reading this one. **Books Completed:** Vol 1: I Will Fear No Evil Vol 3: Starship Troopers Vol 5: The Door Into Summer Vol 9: How to Be a Politician Vol 10: Rocket Ship Galileo Vol 11: Space Cadet Vol 14: Between Planets Vol 18: Tunnel in the Sky Vol 20: Citizen of the Galaxy Vol 22: The Future History of Robert Heinlein Vol. I Vol 23: The Future History of Robert Heinlein Vol. II Vol 24: Friday Vol 26: Job: A Comedy of Justice Vol 30: Sixth Column Vol 32: Creating a Genre (short stories) Vol 35: Glory Road Vol 36: The Puppet Masters Vol 44: Screen Writing of Robert A. Heinlein Vol. I Up next: _New Worlds to Conquer_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/403 "2013-08-18T15:01:54Z")
I think the reason everybody was so thrilled with _Friday_ is because _I Will Fear No Evil_ sucked so hard they thought RAH would never produce a decent novel again. Unfortunately, I fear they were right. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/404 "2013-08-18T16:17:04Z")
The problem with \*Friday \*is that it’s a damned good old-school Heinlein sf/thriller for half a book, and then it’s almost random events for ten chapters more. For the life of me, I have never been able to make sense of the story and plot after she leaves Georges in New Orleans. Yes, yes, I can piece together what happens, but it’s like reading random ten-page excerpts at intervals from among a thousand pages. The inconsistencies and contradictions just pile up and up. Apologies to Bill and RJ, but it’s a feminist novel the way Irving Wallace’s _The Fan Club_ is. That is to say, not. Not not. It’s a prefeminist man’s idea of what a feminist novel should be, beginning with the infamous rape scene. Which has nothing much to do with Heinlein’s overall attitude towards women etc.; he was just fumbling in a dark corner never lit by his education and experience. (FWIW, the majority of “feminist” fiction is in the same boat, even those written by women feminists.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/405 "2013-08-18T18:51:05Z")
I remember enjoying _Friday_ when it first came out, esp. as compared to his previous several novels, but it’s been a loooong time. I should go back to it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/406 "2013-08-18T18:54:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I think the reason everybody was so thrilled with _Friday_ is because _I Will Fear No Evil_ sucked so hard they thought RAH would never produce a decent novel again. > > Unfortunately, I fear they were right. Well, the immediate successor to IWFNE is usually regarded as one of his masterpieces… ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/407 "2013-08-18T18:59:56Z")
Further thought as I rummage the _Friday_ boxes in my brain… one of the problems is that it’s almost irrelevant that Friday is a woman. For all the window dressing and hoo-rah, she’s not a very feminine character in action or behavior, and it would take little effort to rewrite the story with a male protagonist. Even the pregnancy is almost an afterthought and seems to be contrived more to make the ending more satisfying than to provide real peril earlier. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/408 "2013-08-18T19:05:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, the immediate successor to IWFNE is usually regarded as one of his masterpieces… And the one after that went all cuckoo. TEFL was partially saved by the fact that it was Lazarus-centric. Even then, the last part (Missouri) was a sign of The End Times for Heinlein as an innovative writer. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/409 "2013-08-18T20:12:09Z")
My memory of Friday is that is didn’t come to a spreeching halt for a lot of pointless philosophizing, which made the novel a fun and fast read. It’s been ages since I read Friday, but I just re-read Starship Troopers after seeing the Rifftrax version of the movie. My God, RAH underestimated the progress that was made in the social and behavioral sciences between the late 1950s and the 2010s, let alone the 2300s. Whenever he talks about behaior management he sounds incredibly old fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/410 "2013-08-18T20:51:40Z")
I’m with the “No masterpiece - a muddle…” crowd. One element I remember - it’s a long time since I read it - was the nightmare that was Friday’s New Zealand line marriage. The alternative viewpoint to Mannie’s utopian picture of the Davis family on Luna. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/411 "2013-08-18T21:45:12Z")
I liked _Friday_, and _I Will Fear No Evil_. Better than Number of the Beast anyway, and that’s still an ok book. Agreed that \*Friday \*seemed like it was going to be some other story, then changed. But there’s precedent- he totally got away with that in _Glory Road_. Perhaps a younger Heinlein could have saved Friday. Or perhaps he’s have just filed her away, and that would be too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/412 "2013-08-18T21:52:00Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > …the nightmare that was Friday’s New Zealand line marriage. The alternative viewpoint to Mannie’s utopian picture of the Davis family on Luna. Yes, good observation. One of the big problems for me was how muddled the timeline got with respect to telling the story of the marriage. Time markers were easy to miss in the first sentences of a section, and alla sudden it’s, “What? When did that happen?” Only by very careful reading can a first-time reader keep the sequence of events completely straight, I think. > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Agreed that \*Friday \*seemed like it was going to be some other story, then changed. > But there’s precedent- he totally got away with that in _Glory Road_. I don’t think the two changes are all that similar. _GR_ was a very smooth progression of the story, just in an unexpected direction. _Friday_ cruises along a highway at a good, smooth clip and then is without warning bouncing through a dark forest at night. The handling of lesbianism was also somewhere between simplistic and childish, a real case of ew-ick-I’ve-got-a-woody. Friday is supposed to be utterly complacent about sexuality, but resists advances from other women Most Heroically until she stoically Gives In for the Good of The Cause… and then her “marriage” to Goldie has a much of a veil as any hetero couple in Heinlein’s golden era writing. All inept tease and covered eyes. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/413 "2013-08-18T22:01:30Z")
Oh, not similar at all in how they were carried out. Glory Road is awesome. Just saying he’s got ‘some’ cred with that sort of plot twist. I’m sitting here realizing how young I was when I read all this. I found Glory Road in 5th grade, I Will Fear No Evil that year or the next. Friday wasn’t out yet, but I had read the preceding story, Assignment in Eternity. I was still a virgin when I read Friday- it all seemed plausible enough. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/414 "2013-08-18T23:10:52Z")
Yeah, _Friday_ was far below his best, but it’s also the best of the works from his late period, and decent, at least, if judged independently of who wrote it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/415 "2013-08-19T00:56:21Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Further thought as I rummage the _Friday_ boxes in my brain… one of the problems is that it’s almost irrelevant that Friday is a woman. For all the window dressing and hoo-rah, she’s not a very feminine character in action or behavior, and it would take little effort to rewrite the story with a male protagonist. Even the pregnancy is almost an afterthought and seems to be contrived more to make the ending more satisfying than to provide real peril earlier. Hmm. I’m not sure I buy that. Handled correctly, a story written where the gender of the protagonist is irrelevant could be very feminist. Case in point is the portrayal of Hit Girl in the first Kick Ass movie (I haven’t seen the new one). In that, we see a female action hero who is utterly unsexualized. Even at 12 it wouldn’t have surprised me to see her dressed skimpily or whatever. But she was portrayed just as a boy with the same skills would be. The biggest problem I have with the character is that she has all this ability, brains, talent, strength and so forth…and she just cashes it in to attain a feminine ideal. Feh. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/416 "2013-08-19T12:55:06Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Hmm. I’m not sure I buy that. Handled correctly, a story written where the gender of the protagonist is irrelevant could be very feminist. Have you read [Outies](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outies-The-Mote-Series-ebook/dp/B004FGMURG)by Jennifer Pournelle (Jerry Pournelle’s daughter)? Set in the universe of _The Mote in God’s Eye_ the main protagonist is [gender neutral](http://archaeology.about.com/od/interviews/a/Interview-With-Jennifer-Pournelle.htm). An interesting conceit but really doesn’t save a pretty poor book. I agree about _Friday_, the whole second half and the ending in particular is a real let down after a classic Heinlein opening. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/417 "2013-08-19T13:24:35Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The biggest problem I have with the character is that she has all this ability, brains, talent, strength and so forth…and she just cashes it in to attain a feminine ideal. Feh. Are you talking about Hit Girl, Friday, Podkayne, Allucquere/Mary, or Maureen? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/418 "2013-08-19T13:38:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > **Friday** Volume XXIV of The Virginia Edition > > In the end, this is a character study of a woman. Fine. But the character isn’t all that great. She’s constantly on the run and having her moves forced on her. She’s more a reactor than an actor. Along the entire route she runs (she spends most of the book on the move) she makes decisions tactically, but never strategically. She is, simply put, a protagonist who is not in charge of her own life. To me, the only place the character of Friday shows any real spunk was with the NZ family when she outs herself. That’s (to me) one of Heinlein’s best moments–from the “outing” to the consequences to her meeting up with the hawt pilot, just great writing. Other than that, yeah, she’s way too passive. Note that in addition to tying in with Gulf, it also ties into Job. The Beanstalk in Texas is the same Texas where Alex visits you-know-who. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/419 "2013-08-19T13:40:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, _Friday_ was far below his best, but it’s also the best of the works from his late period, and decent, at least, if judged independently of who wrote it. Third best, IMO. I liked _Job_ much better…and _Sunset_, while flawed, was a much better character study, IMO. For me, _Friday_ could have been the best, but the whole second half from the time the war breaks out is just a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/420 "2013-08-19T13:48:48Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Note that in addition to tying in with Gulf, it also ties into Job. The Beanstalk in Texas is the same Texas where Alex visits you-know-who. Sure about that? IIRC, Jerry’s world had regular shuttles, not a beanstalk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=22)