# On Re-reading all of Robert Heinlein via The Virginia Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729 "2012-10-14T23:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/501 "2013-08-24T16:13:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And smwrimes it’s quie simper. “Gulf” was written as a poece pg yhr ‘prophesied’ future issue of Astounding, abd as a result had to matchh the letter commenting on it, The character given Kettle-Belly Baldwin was displeasing to Heinlein’s friend and former boss at the Philadelphia Naval MaterialsLab, J. Hartley Bowen, who stated that Friday was his favorite novel. Heinlein’s original idea for “Gulf” was to going to be the book that turned into _Stranger_–Ginny suggested it (“Write a Mowgli story”) but Heinlein and Campbell thought the idea was too big for a short story. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/502 "2013-08-24T16:24:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the other thing I find interesting about _The Star Beast_ is that, out of all of the many juvenile novels where the young male protagonist is oblivious to the young lady who’s scheming to marry him, it’s the only one where the marriage is actually stated in the book, instead of just being implied to be an eventual certainty. Is this perhaps related somehow to John Stuart Thomas’s passivity? Might be that, or it might be a sop to the times. Remember, in most of the juveniles where there’s a significant romantic interest, the ending implies something in the future while the lead is contemplating what he’s going to do next. In TSB, John Thomas Stuart and Betty Sorenson are moving off to a hell of a long way off to be semi-isolated with a small cadre. It might have been easier for Heinlein to ‘make an honest man/woman of him/her’ as they head out to begin adult lives. Remember, too, that Betty has agreed to her role of producer of the next generation of John Thomases. That implies some banging in their future. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/503 "2013-08-24T16:27:20Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But _The Star Beast_ isn’t like that at all. Despite having the trappings of the rest of Heinlein’s juveniles - there’s a boy, a Heinlein matron mother, an alien, some danger, and so forth - the boy doesn’t learn anything. Hell, he’s terrible at pretty much everything he does. There’s not a situation in the book where he doesn’t allow himself to be pushed around or simply makes bad decisions on his own. Even the sequence where he’s reviewing his ancestors (who share his name) and their acts of courage, he takes nothing from it except to form a pointless and ineffective plan. He’s not quite that bad–the few times he stands up for himself (at Lummox’s first trial, for instance), he Does The Right Thing, despite everyone objecting. (Where he offers to pay for the roses and the greenhouse.) He shows a bit of character there, a bit when arguing with his mom when she wants to sell Lummox (but he’s stymied every time she says “We’ll talk about it later” or “We’ll say no more about it”…he has no defense against those phrases) The problem with JT is that he’s spent his life being a professional descendant (to swipe a phrase from Pratchett). His ancestors are so illustrious that I think he feels it’s pointless to strive–why bother? Anything he could do that interests him, his ancestors have done first and better. And his mom (who’s up there in the “Worst Heinlein Mother” competition\*) doesn’t help matters. > [@](#): > > Lummox - The alien of the title - is also a interesting character, but s/he’s not really developed all that much. She starts as an alien with a childish point of view and even later when it’s revealed that s/he’s some sort of ET royalty she still behaves petulantly. She’s demanding and abusive of her followers and very insistent in a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude. Heck, she even has the other ETs crawling around her on their bellies. Keep in mind that Lummox is only 200 years old or so. They’re near-immortals. I got the feeling that she’s about an 8 year old to them. > [@](#): > > And Kiku is portrayed of being worthy of the position. Kiku runs his department while dealing with appointees and underlings and random events from across light years, all without raising his voice and often without needing to give his staff explicit orders. In truth, there’s Qmost of a lesson in management in how Heinlein portrays Kiku and many people could learn how to approach problems by paying attention to how Kiku is presented here. Kiku is also a nice antidote to the silly Damon Knight/Panshin criticism that there are only three Heinlein males. Kiku is absolutely nothing like the Knight/Panshin claim of what the elder Heinlein male is like–he doesn’t bluster, he doesn’t lecture, he doesn’t pontificiate and he’s not always perfectly correct. \*Overall, in the bad Heinlein mom category, JT’s mom is only third runner up–she’s a money-hungry moral-less person who wants to keep JT tied to her apron-strings, but given the choice between money (or her happiness) and JT, she’ll sell him out every time. Second runner-up is Max’s mom in _Starman Jones_–who’s willing to let an incredibly abusive creep beat the crap out of her son, if it’ll keep him in her bed. Winner is Momma Farnham, who is willing to whore herself out so her son can be lobotomized and castrated (as such) to keep him tied to her. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/504 "2013-08-24T17:54:16Z")
Johnathan Chance: At the end of _The Star Beast_, Mr. Kiku speculates that John Thomas is starting to grow a backbone because Betty doesn’t wear one of her fantastic patterns of makeup at the wedding. I think myself that John Thomas is like Don Harvey of _Between Planets_. He’s a typical middle-class kid, of above average, but not genius intelligence, and sheltered upbringing, who is put in a situation where he must deal with major events happening very quickly. I don’t think he did that bad a job. Glad to see all this discussion. I’ve always thought \*The Star Beast \*was a wonderful novel. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/505 "2013-08-24T17:54:23Z")
Gotta admit, I’m avoiding _Farnham’s Freehold_ for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/506 "2013-08-24T17:58:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And smwrimes it’s quie simper. “Gulf” was written as a poece pg yhr ‘prophesied’ future issue of Astounding, abd as a result had to matchh the letter commenting on it, The character given Kettle-Belly Baldwin was displeasing to Heinlein’s friend and former boss at the Philadelphia Naval MaterialsLab, J. Hartley Bowen, who stated that Friday was his favorite novel. The “prophecy” issue of Astounding is an interesting story - here’s some background information [Science Fiction Prophecy](http://www.andrew-may.com/asf/prophecy.htm) (basically a fan wrote a letter to Astounding about an issue from the next year - and Campbell made sure that he had stories of the right titles by the right authors, to fulfill the prophecy). Here’s a contemporary account from Time magazine [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,801009,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,801009,00.html) P.S Hope you’re okay, Polycarp. I recently read about a sudden spurt of typos being a sign of trouble [Dystextia: jumbled text messages as stroke symptom.](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/03/dystextia_jumbled_text_messages_as_stroke_symptom.html) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/507 "2013-08-24T18:02:17Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Lummox - The alien of the title - is also a interesting character, but s/he’s not really developed all that much. She starts as an alien with a childish point of view and even later when it’s revealed that s/he’s some sort of ET royalty she still behaves petulantly. By the way, Robert Asprin’s Myth books feature a character that appears to be inspired by Lummox (the main characters see the character as an unintelligent animal, but from its own point of view, it’s clearly highly intelligent, amused by the behaviour of its apparent owners, and capable of manipulating them and their circumstances) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/508 "2013-08-24T18:04:44Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > 1. It’s interesting that Heinlein’s “terminals” are essentially the Internet\* and Friday’s first day with them leads her to exactly the sort-of link-following that happens on the internet–at one point she starts with searching for Louis XI and ends up spending the afternoon listening to old Broadway musicals she’s downloaded. Nice bit of extrapolation on how addictively time-wasting (and educational) following random links can be. Yeah, that’s one of the bits of “Friday” that has the old Heinlein feel. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/509 "2013-08-24T18:42:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Gotta admit, I’m avoiding _Farnham’s Freehold_ for a reason. Leave it until last. Maybe you’ll win the lottery and be able to pay someone else to read it. Or perhaps you’ll die first. Assuming you end up in the appropriate afterlife, you’re safe then. Of course, if you go the other way you might end up reading it over and over and over. And discussing it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/510 "2013-08-24T19:03:26Z")
Oh, come on, _Farnham_ wasn’t the worst thing Heinlein ever wrote. Yeah, I’ll grant that it’s pretty bad. But it’s still better than any of the world-as-myth garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/511 "2013-08-24T19:22:00Z")
Well, we can agree to disagree, Chronos, ol’ buddy. I always found the WaM books pretty entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/512 "2013-08-24T20:16:31Z")
Don’t save it for absolute last–save a really good one for your finale _Have Spacesuit_, maybe. You’ll want to wash the taste of _Farnham’s_ out of your mouth and finish on a high note. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/513 "2013-08-24T20:19:55Z")
_Farnham_ has it’s good points. There’s a cat in it, for one. And… A little help here… ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/514 "2013-08-24T20:28:25Z")
James Peak is a cool local reference to an alternate-timeline Pikes Peak. Other than that, I can’t help. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/515 "2013-08-25T03:50:38Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > _Farnham_ has it’s good points. There’s a cat in it, for one. And… > > A little help here… I learned about what you get when you mix ammonia with iodine. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/516 "2013-08-25T16:03:38Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > _Farnham_ has it’s good points. There’s a cat in it, for one. And… > > A little help here… Depending on your edition, the spelling is good. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/517 "2013-08-25T16:28:02Z")
_Farnham_ is a Hugo-Nebula-Locus-Pulitzer winner up against _For Us, The Living_. I think there are points of value in it for the serious Heinlein aficionado, but it’s at the very bottom of the list - even after FUTL - for pleasure reading. I think I’ve had more interesting discussions about Heinlein’s early-1960s writing and Hugh Farnham than many, many other more common topics. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/518 "2013-08-25T21:52:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Farnham has it’s good points. There’s a cat in it, for one. And… > > A little help here… The ending with him giving food in exchange for books in his second fallout shelter? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/519 "2013-08-25T22:08:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The ending with him giving food in exchange for books in his second fallout shelter? You could have stopped after the first one and a half words, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/520 "2013-08-25T22:11:22Z")
Oh, stop, you guys. Yeah, it’s a weak one, and an uncomfortable read as well. But it’s still out there and we’ll have to deal with it sooner or later. Kinda like a prostate exam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=27)