# On Re-reading all of Robert Heinlein via The Virginia Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729 "2012-10-14T23:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/621 "2013-10-10T15:53:43Z")
One thing about that story that Heinlein got wrong (and he got it wrong in lots of stories) was the supposed Malthusian crisis. In many of his stories Earth is heavily overpopulated, food is rationed, etc. This figures prominently in Time For the Stars, Tunnel in the Sky, Farmer in the Sky, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and probably a few others I can’t think of right now. Even in his time there was good evidence that this was never going to happen. But lots of people believed it right up until the 1990’s (and some still do), so I guess we have to give him a pass on that. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/622 "2013-10-10T16:19:35Z")
The fact that we’ve always averted these crises (at least, globally; I can think of a few Malthusian countries and regions over the last century) is not proof that we always will, any more than the fact that we backed down from the madness of the Cold War means there will never be a nuclear war. We are into unknown territory every time we add another billion people to the planet, which we do with astonishing regularity. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/623 "2013-10-10T16:24:00Z")
We better get to farming the Moon then! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/624 "2013-10-10T16:32:10Z")
I don’t think there was a planet-wide Malthusian crisis in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. Oh, there’s officially world-wide rationing, but there’s also the implication that it’s basically ignored in First World countries. It’s just places like India where food is really a problem, much like today. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/625 "2013-10-10T16:46:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think there was a planet-wide Malthusian crisis in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. Oh, there’s officially world-wide rationing, but there’s also the implication that it’s basically ignored in First World countries. It’s just places like India where food is really a problem, much like today. More than just an implication. Several times Manny notes that the higher-ups in the West haven’t been missing any calories. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/626 "2013-10-10T17:59:21Z")
It was Mike who predicted a Mathusian crisis _on the moon_. The text clearly indicates that food on Earth is tight, but the economics of the Luna-Earth farming behavior is such that starvation and cannibalization were only 10 or so years away. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/627 "2013-10-10T18:04:25Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It was Mike who predicted a Mathusian crisis _on the moon_. Which was a special case; Earth is at least nominally a closed biosphere. The Loonies were shipping their nutrients out of the loop. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/628 "2013-10-10T19:29:22Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Remember that “dean” simply means “eldest” and does not necessarily confer any notion of superiority. When I look up _dean_, I get told it means the head of the department, or the person who explains things to students. [example](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dean): > [@](#): > > : a person who is in charge of one of the parts of a university (such as a college or school) > : a person whose job is to give advice to the students in a college or high school and to make sure that they obey the school’s rules > : a person who has more experience in or knowledge about a particular profession, subject, etc., than anyone or almost anyone I suppose [this definition](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dean)fits what you say: > [@](#): > > the senior member,in length of service, of any group, organization, profession, etc.: the dean of lexicographers However, [this](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/dean_1) suggests there’s a hint of superiority to the title: > [@](#): > > someone among a group of people who has worked the longest in the particular job or activity they share, and who is their unofficial leader Seems to be one of those titles meant to suggest a position of authority on the topic, perhaps through experience but also respect from the group. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/629 "2013-10-10T20:01:24Z")
The last two definitions fit closest in a non-academic sense. Only the academic use infers authority or expertise… at least, the way I read the definitions. The problem is that Heinlein wasn’t and never in his lifetime entitled to the title. He may have been best-known, most-loved, most highly regarded, the best among his peers… but “dean” in any sense of seniority ignores several other writers of equivalent stature and prior tenure, many of whom outlived RAH. Williamson stands out among those. In any case, he really disliked the term and I’ve always avoided using it for both reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/630 "2013-10-10T20:16:21Z")
**Time Enough for Love** Volume II of _The Virginia Edition_ Section One The opening section of TEfL is interesting in that - aside from a few lines and one brief interlude between Ishtar and Galahad - it is entirely a set of dialogs between Ira Weatheral and Lazarus Long. Ira is the current head of the Howard Families - last seen returning to Earth at the end of Methuselah’s Children - and Lazarus Long is the same character - though 2000 years older - that appeared in that novella. At the intro, we’re introduced to Lazarus as an old, old man who wishes to die. He’s not permitted to by Ira as Ira has determined that - in spite of societal custom - Lazarus is too valuable to the Families to be permitted to depart the mortal realm. What this does is establish that the character we last saw as the driving force in MC is now nothing more than a powerless old man. Sick is body and mind and ready to die, the choice - his only choice - is removed from him. More than just prevented, it’s last revealed that Lazarus has tried to legally suicide several times but each time the device that should do so has been changed to simply knock him out. His memory is so bad that he doesn’t realize it. Ira finds in Lazarus a need to find purpose. He’s lived alone for a long time and sees nothing new under the sun. Ira offers to find him a purpose. This is, of course, a silly thing. The idea that a person outside of oneself could give another purpose in life is short-sighted. However, it allows Ira to keep Lazarus busy - with talking if nothing else - enough that he eventually consents to being made young again. The important thing in this section and the novella that immediately follows, “The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail”, is that both represent a person taking what he perceives - rightly or wrongly - as the easy path. In the beginning of this section, Lazarus has been trying to do the easiest of things: die. The character in the story, David Lamb, specializes in finding the easy path through life. The trick is that sometimes the easiest path is through hard work and succeeding. By the end of this section Lazarus is discovering that the easiest path for his life is now to complete his rejuvenation and become young again. It’s an interesting tie-in to combine world-wearyness with long-term energy and youth. It also plays - in the slightest way - on what plagues our man of yesterday, today and tomorrow…the fact that he truly has run out of things for which to live. He’s done everything - a fact that becomes apparent as the narrative continues. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/631 "2013-10-11T23:07:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think there was a planet-wide Malthusian crisis in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. Oh, there’s officially world-wide rationing, but there’s also the implication that it’s basically ignored in First World countries. It’s just places like India where food is really a problem, much like today. The case that really got me was “Farmer in the Sky”. OK, we have total conversion of matter to energy, so efficient that we can terraform Ganymede and ship food from Ganymede back to Earth. And yet on Earth there is no way to increase crop yields to feed the starving billions, food is so sharply rationed that buying and selling food is illegal and there is an intense societal taboo that only rationing is acceptable. Yeah, food production increases arithmetically, population increases geometrically. Except shipping food to earth from GANYMEDE is going to have to be a hundred times more expensive than growing food in an underground greenhouse powered by total conversion. Yeah, yeah, it is presented that shipping food from Ganymede is only a temporary stop-gap and a genocidal war that reduces Earth’s population to sustainable levels is immanent. But the temporary stop-gap makes no sense. Or maybe we’re supposed to understand that the Powers-that-be know that supplying Earth from Ganymede is counterproductive, but they’re setting up the colonies anyway to provide a refuge during the upcoming Malthusian dystopia. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/632 "2013-10-11T23:41:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > One thing about that story that Heinlein got wrong (and he got it wrong in lots of stories) was the supposed Malthusian crisis. In many of his stories Earth is heavily overpopulated, food is rationed, etc. This figures prominently in Time For the Stars, Tunnel in the Sky, Farmer in the Sky, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and probably a few others I can’t think of right now. > > \*\*Even in his time there was good evidence that this was never going to happen. \*\* He may have come across that evidence. But it didn’t fit with a particular aspect of his fundamental view of life (that it’s a zero-sum game). Also, on a less-psychological level: conflict over getting a base level of calories is easy to understand. Without that, he’d have had to come up with other plot-engines (and they might have been less effective). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/633 "2013-10-12T02:27:51Z")
I think it can be summed up more succinctly as “bureaucrats are stupid”. Heinlein knows darned well that farming off-world and shipping the food back to Earth is stupidly inefficient (that’s kind of the main plot point of _Mistress_, after all). He’s not trying to say that it’s a good idea; he’s saying that even though it’s a lousy idea, people would do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Domesticated\_Primate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Domesticated\_Primate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domesticated_Primate)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/634 "2013-10-15T22:48:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > We better get to farming the Moon then! And mining the asteroids! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/635 "2013-10-16T01:13:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m not sure which book you mean by “this book”, but I don’t rank _Time for the Stars_ as “one of the better juveniles”. In fact, it’s my least-favorite of them, for the reasons I described. If you mean _Citizen of the Galaxy_ (leaving aside the question of whether it’s technically a juvenile), yes, I liked that one well enough, though it’s not my personal favorite. > > And the scene you refer to, “but what if you then turn on the engines”, is from _Methuselah’s Children_. Or at least, that’s one of the places it showed up: I wouldn’t swear that there’s not a similar scene in some other book. And IIRC, it’s Lazarus Long that asks it, not an uneducated kid, so the captain isn’t just patronizing him with a non-answer. I think the specific scene you’re thinking of is _Farmer In the Sky_ (I just reread it). There’s a momentary bit in _M’s Children_ where Libby says he’ll think about it, but it’s nt the full-blown interchange in _Farmer_ > [@Farmer in the Sky](#): > > “A mass-conversion ship has plenty of power to do just that. At one hundred per cent efficiency, it would use up about one per cent of her mass as energy and another one per cent as reaction mass. That’s what the Star Rover is going to do when it is finished.” > One of the younger kids was waving his hand. “Mister Chief Engineer?” > “Yes, son?” > “Suppose it goes on a few weeks longer and passes the speed of light?” > Mr. Ortega shook his head. “It can’t.” > “Why not, sir?” > “Eh, how far have you gone in mathematics, sonny?” > “Just through grammer school calculus,” the kid answered. > 'Tm afraid there is no use in trying to explain it, then. Just take it from me that the big brains are sure it can’t be done." > I had worried about that very point more than once. Why can’t you go faster than light? I know all that old double-talk about how the Einstein equations show that a speed faster than light is a meaningless quantity, like the weight of a song or the color of a sound, because it involves the square root of minus one—but all of that is just theory and if the course we had in history of science means anything at all, it means that scientists change their theories about as often as a snake changes his skin. I stuck up my hand. > “Okay,” he says. “You with the cowlick. Speak up.” > “Mr. Ortega, admitting that you can’t pass the speed of light, what would happen if the Star Rover got up close to the speed of light—and then the Captain suddenly stepped the drive up to about six g and held it there?” > “Why, it would— No, let’s put it this way—” He broke off and grinned; it made him look real young. “See here, kid, don’t ask me questions like that. I’m an engineer with hairy ears, not a mathematical physicist.” He looked thoughtful and added, “Truthfully, I don’t know what would happen, but I would sure give a pretty to find out. Maybe we would find out what the square root of minus one looks like— from the inside.” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/636 "2013-10-16T01:21:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not in Heinlein’s story. The traveling twin never turns around and comes back: When they eventually meet up again, it’s through the use of a magic FTL tech that’s been invented since the ship left. > > And while the traveling twin does accelerate, it’s in such a way that he’s always moving away from the other twin, so the acceleration doesn’t qualitatively change anything about the problem. …wait, what? Acceleration is acceleration, isn’t it?\* Let’s say Twin A zips off to Alpha Centauri at near light speed. From Twin B’s’ perspective, he’d get there in about 4 years or so. From Twin A’s POV, the trip would be…faster? than four years? So twin B is ~4 years older than Twin A, right? They “stop” at Alpha Centauri (define the term “stop” however is appropriate to letting passengers get off the ship on Rann, a habitable planet circling Alpha Centauri). The ship turns around and heads _back_ to Earth at a fraction under light speed. Again 4 years for Twin A, less than that for Twin B, right? The two twins meet and find Twin A is now ~8 years older than Twin B. This is my (probably way incorrect) understanding of how the Twin Paradox works. This also fits with Heinlein’s story. However…if you say it’s wrong, I trust you on this, but would love you to explain how/why. \*Note, I’m not trying to argue or be sarcastic, I honestly don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/637 "2013-10-16T04:34:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > We better get to farming the Moon then! I’m on it. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/638 "2013-10-16T09:08:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it can be summed up more succinctly as “bureaucrats are stupid”. Heinlein knows darned well that farming off-world and shipping the food back to Earth is stupidly inefficient (that’s kind of the main plot point of _Mistress_, after all). He’s not trying to say that it’s a good idea; he’s saying that even though it’s a lousy idea, people would do it anyway. More saying “elected politicians are stupid”! “Bread and circuses” etc. The bureaucrat Mr Kiku gets a much more favourable press than the politician Mr McClure in HSWT. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/639 "2013-10-16T20:31:22Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > …wait, what? > > Acceleration is acceleration, isn’t it?\* > > Let’s say Twin A zips off to Alpha Centauri at near light speed. From Twin B’s’ perspective, he’d get there in about 4 years or so. From Twin A’s POV, the trip would be…faster? than four years? > > So twin B is ~4 years older than Twin A, right? > > They “stop” at Alpha Centauri (define the term “stop” however is appropriate to letting passengers get off the ship on Rann, a habitable planet circling Alpha Centauri). The ship turns around and heads _back_ to Earth at a fraction under light speed. Again 4 years for Twin A, less than that for Twin B, right? > > The two twins meet and find Twin A is now ~8 years older than Twin B. > > This is my (probably way incorrect) understanding of how the Twin Paradox works. This also fits with Heinlein’s story. > > However…if you say it’s wrong, I trust you on this, but would love you to explain how/why. I don’t want to speak for Chronos, but I see the problem this way. You’re absolutely right about what would happen if one twin went at high speed to Rann, and returned to Earth - the traveling twin would be younger. But that’s because the younger twin switched reference frames at Rann. The two twins are in symmetric situations until the turn around - the twins are moving apart at high speed, and per relativity, there’s no reason to consider one twin or the other as the non-moving one. So when the twins communicate telepathically, which one is younger. In the real world, this is an unanswerable question - there’s no way to communicate instantaneously between the twins (communicating by light-speed signals would show that Twin a was younger from Twin b’s point of view and Twin b was younger from Twin a’s point of view), without one twin turning around and thus changing reference frames, and breaking symmetry. The fact that telepathic communication ‘picks’ twin B as the older twin implies that twin B’s reference frame is preferred - which ‘breaks’ the foundations of relativity. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/640 "2013-10-16T21:10:56Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I don’t want to speak for Chronos, but I see the problem this way. You’re absolutely right about what would happen if one twin went at high speed to Rann, and returned to Earth - the traveling twin would be younger. But that’s because the younger twin switched reference frames at Rann. The two twins are in symmetric situations until the turn around - the twins are moving apart at high speed, and per relativity, there’s no reason to consider one twin or the other as the non-moving one. This is where I get lost. We’ve done physical real-world, experimental tests of relativity (something about putting an (atomic?) clock in a plane that was synced to another clock outside the plane and the one inside the plane (after a supersonic flight) was microseconds behind the stationary one. If the frames of reference thing was right, they should both have been equally slow or fast,right? Yeah…here…this page. > **[Hafele–Keating experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment)** > > The Hafele–Keating experiment was a test of the theory of relativity. In 1971, Joseph C. Hafele, a physicist, and Richard E. Keating, an astronomer, took four cesium-beam atomic clocks aboard commercial airliners. They flew twice around the world, first eastward, then westward, and compared the clocks in motion to stationary clocks at the United States Naval Observatory. When reunited, the three sets of clocks were found to disagree with one another, and their differences were consistent with Ac... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=33)