# On Re-reading all of Robert Heinlein via The Virginia Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729 "2012-10-14T23:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/661 "2013-10-22T00:26:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Communicating instantly with someone 8 light years away is the same as communicating with someone 8 years in the past. I don’t buy that. You could be in another star system, eight light years from Earth, watching a star go supernova. You tell your friend that you’re seeing it explode, but just because it’ll be eight years before the light reaches him on Earth doesn’t mean it didn’t happen at the very same time you were talking with him. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/662 "2013-10-22T08:02:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …if you can communicate “instantaneously” in your reference frame with someone 8 light years away, then there is some frame of reference where you’re communicating with someone up to 8 years in the past. Chronos is (of course) correct; but you have to jump through some hoops to get a message backwards-in-time. The key factor is finding that special frame of reference that allows you to send information back in time. It turns out that you have to be moving very fast in a particular direction in order to occupy that frame. If you are in a relativistic (but not faster-than-light) spacecraft moving in that particular direction, **and** you have a telepath on board who can communicate instantly with another one on a different ship, you will be able to send a communication into the absolute past of someone who is observing both ships from yet another frame of reference. This process could in theory be extended even further back by using more fast-moving ships. I wonder if Heinlein realised this. I haven’t read the book in question, but I know of it, and I believe it was mostly concerned with the twin paradox rather than any potential breaches of causality. Since Heinlein wrote quite a few excellent time travel tales (which I have read) I’d be a bit surprised if he didn’t realise the potential of FTL causality reversals. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/663 "2013-11-18T21:15:06Z")
The U.S. Postal Service is issuing Medal of Honor stamps. The folio lists all WWII receipients of the Medal of Honor; Rodger W. Young, an Ohioan of course immortalized by Heinlein in _Starship Troopers_, is alphabetically third from the end: [http://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13\_085.htm](http://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13_085.htm) > **[Rodger Young](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodger_Wilton_Young)** > > Rodger Wilton Young (April 28, 1918 – July 31, 1943) was a United States Army infantryman from Ohio during World War II. Born in the small town of Tiffin, Ohio, in 1932, Young suffered a sports injury in high school that led to his becoming nearly deaf and blind. Despite this, Young was able to pass the exams necessary to enter the Ohio National Guard. Soon after the United States entered World War II, Young's company was activated as part of the U.S. Army. Soon after his activation, in 1943, ... ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/664 "2013-11-18T23:09:51Z")
It’s Radar O’Reilly! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/665 "2013-11-19T00:24:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Heinlein’s telepathy method involved close relatives. There was an oddity where age made a factor, and one could become “in tune” with a new relative. But not just anybody. > > If one could tune in to anybody, or multiple partners, then in theory one could stack telepathic links, run a telepath relay. I seem to recall that the old guy and the young girl were not related. Is that correct? It’s been years since I read the book. And later on, the protagonist managed to converse telepathically with the young girl so long as the old guy was in the loop. And with the old guy too, for that matter, who he definitely wasn’t related to. The implication was that telepathy happens easiest between identical twins, then close relatives, then distant relatives, then people not related but somehow able to find each other’s ‘frequencies’. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/666 "2013-11-19T00:59:27Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The U.S. Postal Service is issuing Medal of Honor stamps. The folio lists all WWII receipients of the Medal of Honor; Rodger W. Young, an Ohioan of course immortalized by Heinlein in _Starship Troopers_, is alphabetically third from the end: > > [World War II Medal of Honor stamp released](http://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13_085.htm) > [Rodger Young - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodger_Wilton_Young) “Shines the Name!” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/667 "2013-11-19T01:04:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I seem to recall that the old guy and the young girl were not related. Is that correct? It’s been years since I read the book. > > And later on, the protagonist managed to converse telepathically with the young girl so long as the old guy was in the loop. And with the old guy too, for that matter, who he definitely wasn’t related to. The implication was that telepathy happens easiest between identical twins, then close relatives, then distant relatives, then people not related but somehow able to find each other’s ‘frequencies’. Unless I’m much mistaken, the “old guy” was the main character’s twin brother, and the “young girl” was the main character’s great-grand-niece. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/668 "2013-11-19T02:18:42Z")
No, I think Sam’s talking about Uncle Alfred and Sugar Pie, there. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/669 "2013-11-19T04:50:13Z")
That’s it. The names were on the tip of my tongue, but I couldn’t think of them. Were they related? I seem to recall that Uncle Alfred raised her, but I can’t remember if he was her literal uncle or not. In any event, Tom learned to communicate with them and definitely wasn’t related. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/670 "2013-11-19T05:03:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That’s it. The names were on the tip of my tongue, but I couldn’t think of them. Were they related? I seem to recall that Uncle Alfred raised her, but I can’t remember if he was her literal uncle or not. In any event, Tom learned to communicate with them and definitely wasn’t related. My recollection is that Tom, Uncle A, and Sugar Pie would sit and talk regularly (Alfred relaying to/from SP for Tom), then there was an epiphany moment when Tom heard SP for a moment on his own, then they tried to develop the connection from there. Later Tom was bothered that he could hear Uncle A and SP talking without him being invited, feeling like an eavesdropper on private conversation between close family. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/671 "2013-11-19T05:06:40Z")
Yep. It’s all coming back now. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/672 "2013-11-19T13:39:46Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No, I think Sam’s talking about Uncle Alfred and Sugar Pie, there. Ah. Sorry about that, Sam. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/673 "2013-11-19T14:26:43Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That’s it. The names were on the tip of my tongue, but I couldn’t think of them. Were they related? I seem to recall that Uncle Alfred raised her, but I can’t remember if he was her literal uncle or not. In any event, Tom learned to communicate with them and definitely wasn’t related. As I recall, Sugar Pie’s parents - presumably Alfred’s child and his/her spouse - died and he ended up raising her. Uncomfortably, the designation of ‘Uncle’ stems from the same habit as referring to a non-elderly black man as ‘boy’. It’s a leftover product of a less-concerned-with-racism past. No slam on RAH, it’s just a sign of the times. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/674 "2013-11-19T23:07:16Z")
Meh, plenty of people have their children call the parents’ close friends “uncle” and “aunt” even if there is no relation. Kind of a “respect for elder but closer relation than Mister/Miz”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/675 "2013-11-19T23:46:30Z")
Yeah, that’s my take too. I didn’t see a racial angle to that at all. As a kid I had lots of ‘uncles’ that weren’t. Any close friend of the family was ‘Uncle’ so-and-so. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/676 "2013-11-19T23:48:51Z")
Ditto. Not necessarily a “black thing.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/677 "2013-11-24T19:52:27Z")
On a totally different subject: Check out today’s [Full Frontal Nerdity](http://ffn.nodwick.com/?p=1230). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/678 "2013-11-24T21:24:51Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Meh, plenty of people have their children call the parents’ close friends “uncle” and “aunt” even if there is no relation. Kind of a “respect for elder but closer relation than Mister/Miz”. My nephew explained it pretty well. He said that, as a child, he called all of the adults in our extended family Uncle and aunt, and all of the people his own age cousin. Our last family reunion had about 150 people there. At least a third of them were not actually related to us, but are family none the less. JFTR: We are, for the most part, Caucasian. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/679 "2013-11-25T16:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > On a totally different subject: Check out today’s Full Frontal Nerdity. Why am I not surprised that Lewis likes the Verhoeven movie? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729/680 "2013-12-13T02:58:37Z")
**Time Enough for Love** Volume 2 of _The Virginia Edition_ I realize that I said I’d do this in sections but I changed my mind. Let me get clear here. I have long considered this book to be Heinlein’s masterpiece. Far more so than _Stranger in a Strange Land_. _Stranger_ may get the counter-culture love but this is a far more human tale about the things that drive us. Family, connection, self-creation and so forth. With _Time Enough for Love_ Heinlein takes the long-form novel to explore just the things that make us human. The ability to make connection with other humans, to love and be loved in return. I know that sounds trite and sort of schlocky but if it does it’s because it represents a universal truth. People - the species human - are social creatures and desire both the affection and approval of other humans. Different people hold this to a greater or lesser degree, but the need for it is in all of us somehow. Heinlein demonstrates this by bringing back a character from one of his Future History novels, Methuselah’s Children, Lazarus Long. Last seen as a raconteur more than 20 years (and 2000) years prior, Lazarus was once a man of great savvy and resourcefulness. However, at the beginning of TEfL, he’s a tired old man doing nothing more than hoping to die. He’s disconnected from the world and the people around him and wants nothing more than the end. In the first section, he’s shown as completely disempowered, a man without any control over his own fate. It’s only by once again connecting with others - even though by experience he has a great deal of trouble identifying with any of them - that Lazarus Long can truly begin to feel a need to carry on. Whether it’s the gentle and agapic love of a computer or the full on affection of a broken down old woman who wants to die as well, slowly his ability to be one with others and to form both romantic and familial connections is regained. This is shown in the storytelling section. In the first, “The Tale of the Man Who Was Too Lazy to Fail”, we find Lazarus telling the story of a man who was - essentially - in love only with himself. David Lamb, as the titular character, cares very little - at least in the narrative - for anything other than his own comfort and pleasure. He enjoys solitary things like reading and such. Even in his romantic life he reportedly marries because it was the simplest path to a straightforward sex life. There’s little mention of the woman’s name, interests, life whatever. It’s only that Lamb enjoyed sex, desired it and determined that marriage was the easiest path to acquiring sex on a steady basis that is mentioned. Not really flattering to Lamb, nor to his ability to connect with others. The second of Lazarus Long’s tales in the middle section of the book is “The Tale of the Twins Who Weren’t”. It concerns Lazarus acquiring two slaves who - through genetic hijinks - are actually unrelated to each other. Lazarus adopts them, essentially, and trains them - as a father trains a child - in what he thinks it means to be an adult. During this time he consistently avoids bedding the female of the twins and later encourages them to marry each other - while keeping their two relationship secret - and to raise a family of their own. The love expressed in this story by Lazarus - still a background character, really - is paternal. Again, not romantic or sexual. Even during the tale - which takes place over 50 years or so - the marriage and children that Lazarus actual is involved with is shoved into the background to focus on his relationship with the twins and their relationship with each other. Then we get a real connection out of Lazarus in “The Tale of the Adopted Daughter”. However, the connection begins before than tale in a late-night conversation Lazarus has with Minerva, a sentient computer to whom he opens up. Does Heinlein have him open up to Minerva because she’s not human? Maybe because she’s a bit more remote than a flesh and blood person and therefore the vulnerability that being open gives one is easier to take? Perhaps. “The Tale of the Adopted Daughter” is finally a tale where Lazarus is front and center. As a masqueraded older man he ends up adopting a small girl and raising her. But later he transforms into a younger man (that he actually was at the time) and married her when she’s about 18-20. They proceed to pioneer and have a deeply felt love that provides that connection that has been missing from Lazarus so far in the book. It’s a love that some might say is doomed, because he’s long-lived and she’s not, but in the end the value isn’t in the time, but in the fact that it happened at all. \*Parenthetical aside: This was also done very well in the movie The Highlander. I recall seeing that in college with a bunch of friends, male and female, and in the scene where the highlander’s first love is dying of old age and he was still young, I looked around and every single girl (this was college, recall) in the room was crying. Then, it wasn’t so much. Now, it gets to me. \* So, having explored personal, familial and romantic love, Time Enough for Love moves on to a reawakened Lazarus Long no with the ability to travel in time. Reasonably - for certain values of reason, I suppose - his first trip is back to his childhood times. This is, magically, nearly the location and time of Heinlein’s own childhood. Not precisely, perhaps, but close enough for government work. The events that take place show how Lazarus Long’s early connections to others continue - even after more than 2000 years - to be of value to him. He fervently desires the respect of his grandfather and the love of his mother. In one of the episodes that could make some squeamish, he has what is essentially a one-night stand with his own mother at age 35. Note, Patterson - in his introduction to the book - details this scene as an archetypical breaking of taboos, in this case the incest taboo. Further, he goes on to say that a lot of the book is about building to that with various stages of the incest taboo such as The Twins take and The Adopted Daughter tale. However, I think he’s reading the surface and ignoring the more important universal truth of love and connection that underlies the entire book. In addition, if the incest taboo was the central thread of the book and the tales were building towards it, why is it completely missing from the first tale, that of the Lazy Man? Another interesting way in which Heinlein shows the need for love and connection with others can outweigh other concerns is the alteration of the goals of Lazarus Long. In the opening chapters, Lazarus contends that he will allow himself to be rejuvenated - made young again though medical means - provided those who control him can find him something unique to do with his life. He contends that he’s done everything worth doing and all being young again would do is set him on a treadmill chasing things he’s already done. However, as he finds connection with others, Ira, Hamadryad, Ishtar and Galahad and Tamara, his desire for novelty wears off. Heck, even in his discussion of time travel - the activity that leads him to agree that they’ve found ‘something new’ - he contends that he doesn’t want to go back to see things he’s done before, yet the first time he visits is the very first time he ever can remember! He’s literally going back around the wheel to start again! At the end, Lazarus Long proves that love and connection, in this case that of his love and connection for both his grandfather - platonic - and his mother - decidedly NOT platonic - outweighs his often stated desire to play it safe and not take chances. He ends up volunteering for one of the most disastrous wars in history in the trenches of War War One to win the approval of those two and is eventually hit and - possibly - killed. In the end, mortally wounded, his is picked up by his future family to maybe live or die. But whether he is or not is irrelevant to the point of the story. The need for love and connection has won out in the man who could live forever. Books Completed: Vol 1: I Will Fear No Evil Vol 2: Time Enough for Love Vol 3: Starship Troopers Vol 5: The Door Into Summer Vol 8: Stranger in a Strange Land Vol 9: How to Be a Politician Vol 10: Rocket Ship Galileo Vol 11: Space Cadet Vol 14: Between Planets Vol 17: The Star Beast Vol 18: Tunnel in the Sky Vol 19: Time For the Stars Vol 20: Citizen of the Galaxy Vol 22: The Future History of Robert Heinlein Vol. I Vol 23: The Future History of Robert Heinlein Vol. II Vol 24: Friday Vol 26: Job: A Comedy of Justice Vol 30: Sixth Column Vol 32: Creating a Genre (short stories) Vol 35: Glory Road Vol 36: The Puppet Masters Vol 44: Screen Writing of Robert A. Heinlein Vol. I [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-re-reading-all-of-robert-heinlein-via-the-virginia-edition/637729.md?page=35)