Size is relative.
I wouldn’t argue, but my reasons for doing so might surprise you. I am fairly certain what class of Heinlein aficionado you are, and I won’t step on any more toes in this, which is largely your, thread.
To the second, I have fewer restraints than anyone I know of in a position to discuss the matter. Approximately… zero. Some who know me would say it was a significant negative number. (I don’t even have to worry about depressing the value of a Virginia Edition, since I don’t own one.)
To the first, sheer weariness with the topic. I was intrigued to see such an involved RAH thread appear here and was moved to toss in a few comments from the cheap seats. If anyone wants to PM me, I will provide a link to a discussion of around 100k words on the subject. But it’s JC’s thread, and he’s doing well with the analysis of each work, so lemme slip back to lurk mode herein.
Sorry about extending the hijack, but these kind of cryptic pronouncements always intrigue me. And I say that without snark :). I genuinely find the casual sociological classification schemes of folks interesting.
I guess I can think of libertarian vs. non-libertarian Heinlein fans ( for the record I’m non-libertarian ), but one is compelled to wonder if dozens of discrete genera exist.
I’ve always heard that attributed to Kissinger (a veteran of cutthroat faculty politics at Hahvahd): “The fighting is so fierce because the stakes are so small.”
Honestly, it’s those kind of comments that, to me, shout ‘juvenile, self important fool’, actually.
The desperate need to play childish power games only reveals a person’s own insecurities and need for affirmation. I have, as a reporter (and politician) seen people who so desperately need to feel valued that they delight in providing hints and allusions against others where a real man, the sort of man RAH would aspire to, would instead not be destructive. Which is what NitroPress is doing in his oblique slam of someone know one else here knows and also in his classist attempt to establish his authority by unsubtley attacking me.
In short, my friend, grow up.
Well, yeah, that’s often the case.
But I’m still somewhat intrigued despite myself. Just how many kinds of Heinlein aficionados are there? C’mon - you know you’re curious ;).
Oh, God. Remember, I’m a Jew. You know what they say, “two Jews, three opinions”.
I’m sure one could define many types, Tam. But to use such to define ‘classes’ of people is, as I said, harmful.
And it’s not like I said anything insulting to you, Tam. For you, I’m filled with love and respect. Then again, I know you’re an adult.
I am loving this thread, and subscribing now. Thank you 
I’d say this was verging on the Middle School, but, frankly, the people who were “like that” in Middle School are “like that” their entire lives.
Never tell someone to “grow up”: They’ll either know what you’re talking about, in which case you’re in no position to tell them anything, or you’ll have been correct, in which case you’ve just wasted your time.
Just for the record, I am subscribing to the thread due to the first few dozen posts and insights about Heinlein, and NOT because of the squabbling, which I just got around to noticing my post landed in.
I’d say there are six or seven major classes, with some overlap.
I’d put JC in the class of those who are completely enamored of RAH’s writings and don’t care about any backstory or “negativity”; “They’re just damned good stories and I don’t need any of that analysis crap,” is a common reply. Trekkies, Sherlockians and others who are obsessed with the fictional world (or equivalent) and politely refuse to see beyond it are similar. No diss intended (sincerely); there’s room for all and I understand those who don’t care to hear anything about Heinlein’s less charming side.
Sorry you’ve taken my comments so badly, JC. You have no idea how sincere they are and how much involved experience they’re based on. My bitterness towards the VE comes from knowing, from the blueprint stage, what it should have been and had no reason not to be.
All right. I am declaring the hijack off limits. NitroPress and I will be discussing it via private message.
Over the weekend I finished Creating a Genre. So I’ll be posting reviews of the stories included shortly. Hopefully, we can put the bad taste here out of our mouths.
They from Creating a Genre
Your basic solipsistic tale. How does anyone ever know that anything is real? You can’t, of course.
This story centers on a man in an asylum for believing that nothing is real and that all is a conspiracy. Turns out he’s right, of course. But the skill in the tale is the telling. This is another story where one can see the Heinlein is growing, especially in his handling of dialogue. Whereas before his handling of conversations is stilted and stiff, this becomes a more natural flow as he gets the feel for presenting not just viewpoints, but also the people and their personalities.
Note, also, that some of the plots seem almost hackneyed. But many of these stories are some of the first to ever get any real traction like this. It’s easy to dismiss them as being one of a pack of similar stories but it’s different in context as they weren’t part of any pack when first written. It’s something to be kept in mind.
"-And He Built a Crooked House" from Creating a Genre
What can you say about a story, from early 1941 that features a tesseract as a main feature? And we ain’t talking about no crazy Avengers tesseract, either. We’re talking about the hardcore multi-dimensional sort. Much fun.
This is essentially a classic pulp story about people dealing with science outside of their realm of knowledge. It’s a hoot and a holler. The characters are barely there, though we do see an appearance of Heinlein’s ‘matron’ character that pops up so often in his early works (and who will again appear in my next review).
Still, just working out the math of of the tesseract was enjoyable to me when I first read it, some ungodly number of years ago.
"-We Also Walk Dogs" from Creating a Genre
This is the second place in this collection where it gets really interesting. Of all the stories in this volume this has the loudest ‘voice’, in my opinion. There’s some real back and forth dialogue and a strong science fictional sense to it, even though the normal background of science fiction, aliens, space travel, what-have-you…are entirely in the background. The don’t MATTER to the story.
Easily, the presence of Jovians and so forth are completely irrelevant. They exist only as a maguffin to drive the action. WHY do the characters do what they do? To hold a conference of aliens on Earth. But it could just as easily have been about anything else that placed the clients under pressure.
We also do see another ‘Heinlein Matron’ appearance as a customer in the opening scene. That scene establishes what General Services does. It does NOT establish the storyline. That shows up after the matron is (largely) off screen being useless somewhere. She shows up later in a short scene only, to my mind, meant to establish that Grace Cormet is a professional and not to be distracted by ‘society’. It makes for an interesting contrast that establishes the Cormet is NOT a Heinlein matron or other useless female. She’s not even on of the ‘semi-autonomous’ females of “Lost Legacy”. Cormet is one of the first women to appear who is, without a doubt, a person in herself.
And, of course, we have to relate this story to The Future History. Clearly not a part of the Future History it was included in the Shasta compilation The Green Hills of Earth by Heinlein to avoid writing another story to fit in the space and give up 3 years worth of rights (as he had for the novella The Man Who Sold the Moon). So, to misquote Greg Brady, it became a part of the Future History because it ‘fit the suit’.
So we end up with a story that doesn’t belong but that was included for dollars and cents reasons. As a writer I find I have no problem with it at all. Oddly, the notes do say that the short ‘Let There Be Light’ was later removed from The Past Through Tomorrow at the urging of Damon Knight(!) but this story wasn’t removed. With the publication of The Virginia Edition, however, it was removed and is not a part of The Future History.
I’m glad to hear that. There are a few other stories from The Past Through Tomorrow whose presence is debatable, but that one really stood out as not being in the same continuity: The gravity tech in the story was invented by Libby in the Future History continuity, and you just know that Harriman would have had a hand in a company as big as General Services.
An aside for you all:
Interesting approach, although I don’t completely buy it. The Number of the Beast- certainly fits his hypothesis however. That one was a blatant joke.
Interesting read. But it doesn’t really mesh with some of the details. For instance, For Us, The Living is the first “story” he actually wrote. It didn’t sell, and didn’t get published until after his death as a tribute kinda thing for the Heinlein fans to see his starting point. That book has a lot more in common with the later works, including a lot of didacticism over actual story, less convincing characters and dialogue, and a moral point about jealousy and sexual freedom that is explored in his later works starting with Stranger In A Strange Land. It is packed with him trying to explain his notion of economics and politics.
What that shows is that Heinlein’s ideas and philosophy were there all along, he just had to get the cultural venue where he could express it.
By His Bootstraps from Creating a Genre
A fan favorite, based on prior comments upthread. I don’t know if this is the first of the ‘overly complicated self-referential time travel’ stories. If it’s not it needs to be considered in the forerunners of the sub-genre, though.
I still have issues with the closed nature of the time loop, here, though. It always struck me that, no matter how self-contained it is, there’s still something causually wrong about the story. There’s no initiator at the beginning. But that’s part and parcel of the whole thing, I suppose.
Still, a well thought out and well put together story. Of the short stories and novellas and such that aren’t a part of the Future History this is in the running with the top tier.