# On referencing the name of a transgender person before their transition (better explained in OP) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 14, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894 "2024-06-14T23:24:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/21 "2024-06-16T02:42:59Z")
And it’s still possible that someone is digging up old newspaper articles, or the like. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/22 "2024-06-16T03:10:01Z")
He was always Elliot, calling him by his former name is deadnaming him. So when I talk about movies of his like Juno or Hard Candy, I refer to him as Elliot. Just as I prefer not to be deadnamed by anybody, even though my best friend sometimes does it still when they compare me to how I was pre-transition. I should let them know I never really liked that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/23 "2024-06-16T10:53:32Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > “deadnames” (I don’t know if that’s a term he made up or a generally accepted term). It’s the generally accepted term. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/24 "2024-06-16T11:01:10Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Is the standard different for transgender people than for people who have changed their names for other reasons (e.g. Cassius Clay becoming Muhammed Ali)? I have seen the use on née for women to display their maiden name as in Alyson Archibald née Anderson. I have seen it also used in other name change scenarios along with the male equivalent né but it seems far from a standard. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/25 "2024-06-16T12:21:55Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > He was always Elliot Well, maybe. It’s dangerous to generalize about this, because everyone has their own journey. It might be that he always considered himself male, and only just a few years ago went public with that fact. It might be that he used to consider himself female, but now considers himself male. It might be that, at first, he wasn’t sure what he considers himself, and has finally figured it out. And regardless of the timing of his gender identity, he might have decided on his name at some point later (maybe, for instance, he was debating whether he’d prefer Elliot or Allen or Elton, or maybe he was considering a completely different name like Robert or something to distance himself more from his previous name). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/26 "2024-06-16T13:13:18Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > He was always Elliot, calling him by his former name is deadnaming him. So when I talk about movies of his like Juno or Hard Candy, I refer to him as Elliot. Thank you for your contribution. I don’t know a lot about trans issues, but this is how I understood it: it’s not as though it was a different person who appeared in those movies. However, it is objectively true that he was known by a different name at that time, and to scrupulously avoid ever mentioning this seems needlessly confusing if not Orwellian. Is there any problem with something like (as @Roderick_Femm suggested) “Elliot Page (at the time known as Ellen Page)…”? > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I have seen the use on née for women to display their maiden name as in Alyson Archibald née Anderson. I’ve seen that too. It’s a common crossword puzzle word, though I haven’t seen it often in real life. It always makes me think of Monty Python: “We are the knights who say _née_!” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/27 "2024-06-16T13:53:53Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > He was always Elliot, calling him by his former name is deadnaming him. I don’t know that anyone one can make a definitive statement like this for 100% of the cases. I had a friend in high school named Chris which he always hated and in school started going by Tony. His 18th birthday present to himself was legally changing his name. You could argue he was never “Chris” I suppose, but could you say his name was **always** Tony? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/28 "2024-06-16T22:21:39Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > This has come up a few times in the “History of Rock Music in 500 Songs” podcast, not only with transgendered people but, say, people who changed their names as part of a religious conversion or other life-changing event. And he absolutely _refuses_ to refer to people by what he calls their “deadnames” The podcaster you mention, Andrew Hickey, is an extraordinarily thoughtful person, and puts a great deal of thought into how to deal with various sensitive issues. His position on name changes is quite nuanced and I’m sure he wouldn’t claim he gets it right every time. But name changes are very common in the music industry and he will very often tell you that a certain performer stopped being known as X and was thenceforth known as Y. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/29 "2024-06-18T01:36:07Z")
Maybe slightly off-topic, but if I was making a formal reference to a published paper, I would use the name that appeared on that paper. I know a woman who has used 7 different combinations of names on her published papers (various combinations of maiden name and 3 married names). ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/30 "2024-06-18T01:48:05Z")
As a member of the Offenderati, I would go with “then known by the name”. You make no statement as to the person’s true identity. You only say what name they were known by at the time. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/31 "2024-06-18T01:48:19Z")
One of my step-sisters in trans. The family always refers to her by her name even when referencing the past. She is in her early 60s and only transitioned around ten years ago. My 85 year old mom and 90 year old stepdad never screw up the name but will occasionally screw up the pronouns only when referencing the past. I don’t even tell people that she’s trans unless it comes up. Like now. Or if I mention that she was a tank commander in West Germany in the 80s which wouldn’t have been possible with her gender. This is a still evolving thing but as others have mentioned, I call and refer to people according to their preference. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/32 "2024-06-18T13:24:38Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > …The family always refers to her by her name even when referencing the past…I call and refer to people according to their preference. That’s all fine for people who know her, but the issue is when someone else may not know about the name change, such as a former coworker, classmate, distant relative, or the case of a less-well-known celebrity. It’s just to preempt that first “who? I don’t know anyone by that name” dance, just like referencing someone’s maiden name (I’ve only ever seen née used in writing, not in speech). After that, no deadnaming, except for Twitter. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/33 "2024-06-18T16:59:16Z")
Yeah, what happens in my circles is that everyone refers to the person by their current name, except when they mess up. But if anyone looks puzzled, or if you are talking to someone you think is likely unaware of their transition, you might say, “That’s Jane Smith, who used to be called Joe Cwieimtj.” (In my experience, it’s not terribly uncommon for people to take the opportunity of a name change to change the last name, too. It’s certainly not universal. But changing your name is a lot of work, and if you are doing it, you might as well address other aspects of your name you would like to improve.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/34 "2024-06-18T20:25:10Z")
The general etiquette, unless told otherwise, is to avoid deadnaming as much as possible. When Page came out, I specifically remember trans people being very happy with articles that found ways to avoid using his deadnamez without being in anyway ambiguous. I believe they referred to him as “Elliot Page, who played the pregnant teem in _Juno_” or something similar. They referenced the character. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/35 "2024-06-18T20:44:07Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > people who changed their names as part of a religious conversion or other life-changing event. One more on this tangent/hijack and then I’ll stop - I was listening to [episode 135 “The Sound of Silence”](https://500songs.com/podcast/episode-135-the-sound-of-silence-by-simon-and-garfunkel/) today and Cat Stevens was mentioned in passing. There was no mention of his later name change. I don’t doubt that Hickey applies the rule you mentioned in specific cases where he feels it’s appropriate but it’s certainly not in every case. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/36 "2024-06-18T21:40:33Z")
This is not directed at you but something that needs to be said IMO. Another part of general etiquette is not referring to a name used in the past as ‘deadname’ except to friends and family who know your life history. Coworkers and strangers don’t need to know all the personal reasons for a name change. “Please call me \_\_\_\_\_\_\_” is all that should be necessary. Possibly add “I don’t use that other name any more”. I can understand why people use the term ‘deadname’ at times, but it’s a detail about your personal life and your feelings that others usually don’t need to know. Decide for yourself how you deal with your friends and family, but don’t drag your coworkers or the customer service rep into your drama. It’s no different than divorced people constantly bringing up their “No good ex” into conversations. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/37 "2024-06-19T08:06:32Z")
One difference here from most trans people changing names is that “Cat Stevens” is itself a stage name. Also, Yusuf has gone back to performing under both names recently. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/38 "2024-06-19T13:00:53Z")
That would be my thought about it - a “stage name” is exactly that. It’s like a mask put on for certain purposes, although at some point people become very famous under their stage name, or make a legal change. Nobody is running around trying to correct the cover of _Tea for the Tillerman_, it stays as it is/was, but if not referencing historic music, use the name he uses today. Stormy Daniels is Stephanie Clifford(?) and is frequently referenced by both names in news articles to prevent confusion, as the latter is (presumably) still her legal name and the news was about legal proceedings, it was necessary to prevent confusion. I suspect her apparently religious extended family is happy that the notoriety follows more closely her stage name. OTOH, with a full and proper name change like Muhammed Ali, I don’t think I’ve seen Cassius Clay mentioned in decades except in the context of discussing that “he changed his name”. I tend to agree that trying to rewrite the past is Orwellian, but dwelling on things someone would rather prefer not be said, is a deliberate insult - much like using the wrong pronoun. The credits for _Juno_ were “Ellen Page” and that’s history, but unless mentioning that movie in sufficient detail, there is no need to mention or dwell on the former name. He is Elliot. The example above “at the time known as” to avoid confusion, is probably about as much detail as necessary. i.e. it’s a fact, don’t ignore the past, but don’t bring it up unless necessary. My wife works with someone who is transitioning. From what I gather, _he_ has not legally changed his name, so there is HR paperwork that references something like _Sally Jones (Bill Smith)_ since the government requires records for tax purposes etc. to be unconfusingly the legal name. So HR sees both to understand the dichotomy, although from what I hear about it, he looks like a he. So, not a lot of people there even know that he was once a she, and this being the 21st century, it’s not a big deal. Outside of HR paperwork and legal issues, there’s no reason to mention the legal name. Everyone uses the name he prefers. There’s something similar but not so unusual about people who use their middle name as their given name. Everyone knows Bob, but once in a while there would be something from HR for _Sam R. Smith_ and it may take a minute for the boss to think “oh you mean Sam Robert Smith”? A name is what you want your name to be. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/39 "2024-06-19T13:35:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Another part of general etiquette is not referring to a name used in the past as ‘deadname’ except to friends and family who know your life history. I’m not sure what point you are making. Are you saying not to use the term “dead name”? I changed my first name as well as my last name when i got married. (It’s a nuisance to change names…) I sometimes refer to my prior legal name as my dead name. There was no drama around my name change, in fact, i changed my legal first name to the name everyone who knew me already called me, and had since i was small. But sometime the fact that i used to have a different legal name comes up, and “dead name” seems like a succinct way to refer to it. I mean, i never volunteer my prior legal name. I just introduce myself as Puzzle, and expect people to accept that as my name. But anyway, i guess i don’t understand what point you are making. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894/40 "2024-06-19T14:30:43Z")
An interesting case is Harris Glenn Milstead who preformed in drag as Divine, a female character. He used male pronouns in life except when he was in character. He went by Glenn or Divy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-referencing-the-name-of-a-transgender-person-before-their-transition-better-explained-in-op/1002894.md?page=3)