# On repealing the 17th Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461 "2017-12-28T14:41:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/21 "2017-12-28T21:43:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Gerrymandering? Are you sure you mean gerrymandering? > > AFAIK, the Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution established the popular election of United States Senators by the people of the states. > > Could you explain to the class exactly how it would be possible to gerrymander an election for a United States Senator’s seat? He’s talking about pre-17th. When the members of a state legislature choose senators, gerrymandering is very relevant, as it can distort the makeup of a legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/22 "2017-12-29T21:15:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Could you explain to the class exactly how it would be possible to gerrymander an election for a United States Senator’s seat? Party X controls state legislature. Party X redraws legislative districts to ensure a legislative majority by packing Party Y’s voters into districts with higher populations. 17th Amendment repealed; Party X now gets to choose state’s senators indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/23 "2017-12-29T22:18:31Z")
Which is just one of the reasons that any attempt to repeal the 17th will fail. Legislators introduce all kinds of wack-a-doodle bills for various reasons. That doesn’t mean the bills have any hope of passing. I doubt that a bill to repeal the 17th Amendment would have any more popular support among Senators, or voters, than Democrat Senator Dianne Feinstein’s bill S.2095, which attempts to ban firearms again. _for political reference - S.2095 - Assault Weapons Ban of 2017 115th Congress (2017-2018)_ [https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2095/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2095/text) [https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2095/cosponsors](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2095/cosponsors) Some bills are just meant to die in committee, or on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/24 "2017-12-29T22:58:52Z")
With the ultra-partisan state of politics right now it would be difficult to get any amendment passed (which is what a repeal is, a new amendment). Anything that would pass would have to be so innocuous that it shouldn’t really be in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/25 "2017-12-29T23:20:38Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I thought all the shenanigans over filling Obama’s vacated seat was a pretty good explanation for why we don’t want repeal the 17th. > I’m sure that’s part of it but in my (anecdotal) experience it’s all related to “going back to the way the Founders wanted it” and it’s usually libertarians. The idolatry of the Founding Fathers can get a bit annoying. Especially when the framers themselves put in an amendment process. So far only one of the amendments has gotten the outright “ooookayy, damn, THAT was a mistake” heave-ho, and because it was obvious almost from day one. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/26 "2017-12-29T23:33:50Z")
I think it’s nonsense to talk about a state or a district or even a country having interests that need to be represented. People have interests. Senators represent the people of their state and they should therefore be chosen by those people. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/27 "2017-12-30T13:33:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it’s nonsense to talk about a state or a district or even a country having interests that need to be represented. People have interests. Senators represent the people of their state and they should therefore be chosen by those people. Fine, then we should adjust the Congress to unicameral to reflect reality, and quit pretending that it is bi-cameral. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/28 "2017-12-30T14:52:17Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > Fine, then we should adjust the Congress to unicameral to reflect reality, and quit pretending that it is bi-cameral. Bicameralism doesn’t depend on the Senate representing state interests. We have what, like 49 state legislatures that are bicameral. Quite a few countries have bicameral legislatures. What is the need to “reflect reality,” and what reality are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/29 "2017-12-30T19:35:07Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > Fine, then we should adjust the Congress to unicameral to reflect reality, and quit pretending that it is bi-cameral. That’s a separate issue. You can argue that the people of Wyoming have common interests and are entitled to equal representation with the people of California in one half of Congress. A unicameral Congress would not address this. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/30 "2017-12-30T19:40:35Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Picking up and not wishing to hijack another thread, someone mentioned there’s a fringe movement to repeal the 17th Amendment to the US constitution. > > [Wiki on the 17th Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) > > [NPR Story on the movement to repeal](https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2014/02/05/271937304/rethinking-the-17th-amendment-an-old-idea-gets-fresh-opposition) > > Looking at it, I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable. While not certain I agree with it I can see a reasoning that senators - appointed by the states - are in place to represent the interests of the state and its government. When directly elected, they then change their representation from the state government - as embodied by the governor and legislature - to the people of the state directly. > > That may be a fine distinction but it’s a real one. There’s already one house of congress that is empowered to directly represent the people, those 435 members of the House of Representatives. Is there a need for another 100 people covering the same bases or would a return to senators representing the state governments to Washington be better? The idea that states should be represented on the legislature is an outdated and anti democratic one that serves no legitimate purpose in the modern era, and like the Electoral Collwge creates a big risk of handing power to a minority for without any articulable rational basis, the same as partisan gerrymandering. The purpose of having a Senate at this point is to have a portion of the legislature that changes more slowly than the House of Representatives. That is of potential significant value in terms of balancing rational policy making with democratic representation. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/31 "2017-12-30T19:42:16Z")
The notion that states have “interests” independent of those of their residents is patently absurd. As to Bicameral Vs. Unicameral at the state level doing away with the State Senate actually makes sense as, at the state level, _both_ houses are districted based on population. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/32 "2017-12-30T20:20:25Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I contribute to the campaigns of the Senators in my state because I want them to win. However, I am under no illusion they feel any debt to me as a result. That’s because you weren’t the highest bidder. Anyway, what if we split the difference? One elected at large by the population, and one selected by the state’s legislature. There are advantages and disadvantages to both ways of populating the senate. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/33 "2017-12-30T20:27:21Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > The notion that states have “interests” independent of those of their residents is \*\*patently absurd. \*\* This is so obviously true that I can’t take seriously any argument for it. The sole reason to give “states” representation is to hand power to some favored group that doesn’t have the support of the majority of the public. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/34 "2017-12-31T02:49:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The idea that states should be represented on the legislature is an outdated and anti democratic one that serves no legitimate purpose in the modern era, and like the Electoral Collwge creates a big risk of handing power to a minority for without any articulable rational basis, the same as partisan gerrymandering. I think this is the real issue here. The people advocating for this cause don’t give a damn about any principle. They’re just looking for another avenue to use to bypass the outcome of popular elections they don’t win. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/35 "2017-12-31T05:11:10Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The Civil War put an end to the notion that “states” are individual semi-nations banded together in a federation for the purpose of presenting a unified international front. As such, the idea that the Senators (the “wise men” of the nation) should represent the interests of those semi-nations in the national government went away. So matters of constitutionality are settled by brute force and not wise old people in robes? Tell me more. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/36 "2017-12-31T05:22:00Z")
So jerrymander the vote in the states, control the legislature, control the state’s two US senators and make them beholden to the state party? I don’t think we need less democratic representation. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/37 "2017-12-31T15:43:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Bicameralism doesn’t depend on the Senate representing state interests. We have what, like 49 state legislatures that are bicameral. Quite a few countries have bicameral legislatures. > > What is the need to “reflect reality,” and what reality are you talking about? The reality that the original constitution framework set up a Congress with 2 bodies (bi-cameral). One of them represented the people and were directly elected by them. The other represented the states. To be fair, democracy was still an element because the people did elect their state legislatures. With the direct election of Senators the framework of the Constitution was obfuscated. It’s clearer, simpler, and more rational to change the Congress to a Unicameral body to make it more in tune with what is actually happening on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/38 "2017-12-31T16:25:39Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > The reality that the original constitution framework set up a Congress with 2 bodies (bi-cameral). > > One of them represented the people and were directly elected by them. > > The other represented the states. To be fair, democracy was still an element because the people did elect their state legislatures. > > With the direct election of Senators the framework of the Constitution was obfuscated. No, not obfuscated. Changed. > [@](#): > > It’s clearer, simpler, and more rational to change the Congress to a Unicameral body to make it more in tune with what is actually happening on the ground. There’s nothing “happening on the ground” that makes it better or worse to have a unicameral legislature. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/39 "2017-12-31T16:49:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, not obfuscated. Changed. Even better words (I have the best words) might be _evolved_ or _developed_. The committee who wrote that political compromise document expected and wanted that to happen; that’s why they put in the procedures to amend it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461/40 "2017-12-31T17:11:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So matters of constitutionality are settled by brute force and not wise old people in robes? Tell me more. What happened in the Civil War that was not enacted constitutionally and ratified by said robe-wearers? Tell _us_ more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-repealing-the-17th-amendment/805461.md?page=3)