# On Social Stratification in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 16, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536 "2006-03-16T00:31:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/21 "2006-03-16T18:54:32Z")
I’ve actually been rejected by girls I’ve pursued who were certainly less attractive, while fairly attractive girls have shown definite interest in me. How do you explain _that_? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/22 "2006-03-16T19:28:22Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’ve actually been rejected by girls I’ve pursued who were certainly less attractive, while fairly attractive girls have shown definite interest in me. > > How do you explain _that_? standards are too low? um…perhaps you think that you are in a certain category, and are being denied by the ones that would dig that category… however, you’re outer appearance might be that of another category, in which a different order of females are attracted to. …i also realize that this says that “better” looking women are attracted to outer appearances. accurate for the most part or not? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/23 "2006-03-16T19:34:39Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I got placed with roommates in college that weren’t nearly as attractive as I was Who made this judgement? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/24 "2006-03-16T19:51:13Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’ve actually been rejected by girls I’ve pursued who were certainly less attractive, while fairly attractive girls have shown definite interest in me. > > How do you explain _that_? Well, without discussing if I’m hot or not (these discussions always tend to end badly), suffice it to say that I’m probably not as hot as Brad Pitt. Let’s say Brad asked me out. I would most likely say no. The reason is, if you’re dating Brad Pitt, even if your Jennifer Aniston, there’s an Angelina Jolie right around the corner. So - perhaps you look too much like Bradd Pitt. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/25 "2006-03-16T19:52:54Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’ve actually been rejected by girls I’ve pursued who were certainly less attractive, while fairly attractive girls have shown definite interest in me. > > How do you explain that? I’d be interested in explanations for that as well. I’d say I tend to flirt and date in the 7-9s. I have no trouble making eye contact with and getting to know women that, at least physically, are very attractive. But if I meet a more “average looking” girl whose personality I might like, I’ve been completely shut out. Is there no downward mobility here? Should I scar myself in order to meet someone with a personality? How’s that side of the stratification operate? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/26 "2006-03-16T20:01:53Z")
My last serious boyfriend was considered ugly by himself and by several of my friends. Whether or not I’m really hot, I’m not considered ugly by most standards, though I’m sure I’m not everyone’s type. I liked his build, the way he smelled, and he was amazing in bed. And no, he didn’t have any money to speak of either. I liked the fact that he was super-smart, had a critical mind, an incisive wit, and had the body type I like. I also like guys with really big noses, bony bodies, and I’m don’t mind a casually dressed man. Stupidity, otoh, is repulsive to me. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/27 "2006-03-16T20:42:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Who made this judgement? Sometimes the subjective is sufficiently differentiated that judgments move from the realm of opinion to fact. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/28 "2006-03-16T20:53:52Z")
I think men can have a much more varied appearance and still be considered “attractive”. There are images of “attractive” women everywhere, and they all look pretty similar. For example, a woman soilder might look attractive standing next to her tank, but only if she’s wearing camo booty shorts and lipstick- being sexy is the only way for a woman to be appealing. But a male soilder can look “attractive” either shirtless with bedroom eyes or posing in full uniform next to his tank. There is a definately model for the “attractive woman” but nothing similar for the attractive male- even things like male underweare models are more blank palceholders than a genuine rendition of an attractive male. So men grow up learning that women can be measured against a widely seen standard, but women have more freedom to let more individualized preferences grow. Frankly, I don’t buy your “stratification” theory. There are whole swathes of people who wouldn’t know where to begin rating themselves or their companions. What works in your specific peer group- which may tie looks to status more or less than other groups of people- is not universal. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/29 "2006-03-16T20:55:33Z")
Interestingly, a lot of people assume they or the people they associate with are in the 7-9 range. Most attractive people IMHO are in the 6-8. To be a 9 to 10 you really have to be good looking. Like the kind of girl that people stop working to stare at her kind of good looking…and I mean people who are working as a surgeon in the middle of an operation. To be a 10, you need to be like the hottest person in the room…at the Acadamy Awards. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/30 "2006-03-16T21:13:30Z")
This is such a complex knot of a thing. There’s how you are preceived by others, and then there’s how you perceive yourself. What choices do you make when choosing to pursue someone, or not? (How often have we seen someone attractive, thought to ourselves, “I’d have no chace with that person,” and made no move?) In my social formative years, I perceived myself as maybe a 4 (this is on a scale of 1 to 10, right?). Even if I was physically, for example, a 7, my actions and mannerisms then reflected those of a 4, and thus the total package, so to speak, would be lower than a 7. And another thing: If you perceive yourself to be powerless, you will tend to act powerlessly… in the interpersonal/social realm as well as any other realm. Does this reflect in the choices of who you pursue or who you are pursued by? Say you would be a 7, but because you are broke and living from paycheque to paycheque, you are stressed, you are in raggedish clothes, and you are always preoccupied and worried. As a result, even if you are inclined to pursue someone, you know you aren’t in your best shape. Will you go after the other 7s, or go after someone lower? And does this work in reverse? Would a rich/debtless/free/whatever person who is otherwise a 7 go after an 8 or 9 because he or she has greater power and therefore greater confidence? On the other hand, does having the greater power and confidence move him or her into 8 or 9 territory? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/31 "2006-03-16T21:18:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Interestingly, a lot of people assume they or the people they associate with are in the 7-9 range. Most attractive people IMHO are in the 6-8. To be a 9 to 10 you really have to be good looking. Like the kind of girl that people stop working to stare at her kind of good looking…and I mean people who are working as a surgeon in the middle of an operation. To be a 10, you need to be like the hottest person in the room…at the Acadamy Awards. Of course, that assumes everyone’s standard of judgement is similar, _and_ that is is the same as that of the Academny Awards Gorgeousness Clique. I am not convinced that this is the case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/32 "2006-03-16T21:25:14Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > I think men can have a much more varied appearance and still be considered “attractive”. There are images of “attractive” women everywhere, and they all look pretty similar. For example, a woman soilder might look attractive standing next to her tank, but only if she’s wearing camo booty shorts and lipstick- being sexy is the only way for a woman to be appealing. I disagree with your details. A woman tearing down a computer or engine, showing competence and enthusiam, doesn’t have to be undressed to be attractive. And she doesn’t need a lick of makeup either. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/33 "2006-03-16T21:37:57Z")
My rating system comes from the reactions of other men, since for myself I just pursue whatever I happen to find fetching. But just from my own experiences, I’d say a 6 or 7 is cute enough that other guys definitely check her out but won’t necessarily approach. An 8 is a full-on hottie, in that going out is fun but requires some vigilance. A 9 is sufficiently good-looking that when we go out, I feel like I need gladiator equipment to fend off the single dogs that will swarm her at the bar. Maximus, Maximus! We’ll both end up potentially traumatized, but we could drink for free just on the hooch that gets sent over. 10s happen to other guys better off and/or better looking than me, so I have no frame of reference. Centerfold-with-no-airbrushing land. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/34 "2006-03-16T23:56:05Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Of course, that assumes everyone’s standard of judgement is similar, _and_ that is is the same as that of the Academny Awards Gorgeousness Clique. I am not convinced that this is the case. 🙂 Standards of judgement are for 6s and 7s. A 10 is pretty much universally recognized as one hot looking chick. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/35 "2006-03-17T00:01:29Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Sometimes the subjective is sufficiently differentiated that judgments move from the realm of opinion to fact. IOW, it comforts you to this day to believe yourself more attractive than your roomies. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/36 "2006-03-17T00:17:38Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > IOW, it comforts you to this day to believe yourself more attractive than your roomies. It doesn’t comfort me, it is simply a fact. I never said I was all that great but they were in fact, less physically attractive than I was. Relevant to this discussion, they were interested in all of the girls that were interested in me and I wasn’t interested in any of theirs because I could not bring myself to go down notches in looks. I would never picture myself with someone below a certain level. I have always had lots of female friends and I even select those partially by looks as well. ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/37 "2006-03-17T01:44:48Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > the last person brought up another point that could end up hijacking the rest of the thread: are more attractive, by definition, less rounded as people? > the caveats and exceptions are some. for example, i’d think that if we accept that better looking people have worse personalities because, quite frankly, they don’t need to have them as developed to find other people. going by that, it might be the ugly duckling or the late bloomer that we’re after. that would enable you to have at least SOME of both worlds. That brings up an interesting point, and one I think I can relate to. My mother constantly gave me this advice growing up. “The only people who do well in life are either very attractive, very smart, or very nice. You aren’t either of the first two, so you better work on being nice.” I was overweight, so I agreed with her on the attractive part, I am dyslexic, but purposely wasn’t told when I was younger, so I agreed with her on the smart part. So I did grow up working at being very nice. I learned how to make people feel good about themselves. I would ask people lots of questions about themselves, everyone’s favorite subject. I learned to ask people for help or advice on subjects they were good at, made them feel to help someone and good to be recognized for their knowledge. I learned to avoid uncomfortable or controversial subjects. Most people found me incrediably easy to be around. I learned to compliment people on the things that usually went unnoticed, people would really appreciate that. The result was that I was nice, but boring. But that was as much as I could hope for. Then I started working out and got down to my ideal weight. I learned to dress in a flattering way. Many people who hadn’t seen me for a while didn’t even recognize me. I enjoyed all the new people who suddenly were interested in spending time with me. I gained self confidence and no longer felt like the shy wallflower I had been. I finally felt like an active participant in my life rather than a passive observer. The only area that caused me problems, was with men. My husband started dating me around the time I started losing weight. So I was never single and attractive and happy, and had no idea what comes with that. When I would meet a new man, maybe a friend of a friend, or someone at a party, or a work function, I would talk to them the same way I did when I was overweight. I would be very interested in whatever they had to say, compliment them, be very easy to talk to. When I was overweight, I knew if I did all that they might be interested in me as a friend, but nothing else. Now when I do that, they think I must be interested in starting something up with them. They don’t expect me to be so nice, and then when I am, they take it as a come on. It doesn’t matter if I tell them I am happily married, they still think I must be interested in them. I don’t see what I am doing as flirting. I could have the exact same conversation a woman. She wouldn’t see anything I said as flirting. But many of the men do. It has happened so often, that I am trying to change the way I interact with certain men. But I really don’t ever see any clues that someone is interested in me. When I was overweight, no one was interested in me just based on my looks. So it isn’t natural for me to think someone might be interested in me if we have just met. On the guys side, they assume I have been hit on a lot, and must turn down a lot of guys, so when I am friendly with them, they think it means something more that just being friendly. Once I make it clear I am not meaning to start something, they get mad, and accuse me of leading them on. My friends think these situations are extremely entertaining. They know I can’t tell I am being hit on, and am always surprised when someone will ask me out. But it always ends up making me feel bad. I had so many years feeling nothing but rejection, I hate to think that someone feels I rejected them. So from my experience, I would agree that more attractive people really don’t have to work much on developing their personality in order for other people to be interested in them. Some do it anyway, but there really isn’t that much of a payoff like their is for the less attractive people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/38 "2006-03-17T03:27:51Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > \Frankly, I don’t buy your “stratification” theory. There are whole swathes of people who wouldn’t know where to begin rating themselves or their companions. What works in your specific peer group- which may tie looks to status more or less than other groups of people- is not universal. The stratification theory we’re discussing here has almost nothing to do with how people perceive themselves. People finding someone of their own level of attractiveness seems to be almost unconscious. I don’t think many people set out to find someone exactly as attractive as they are, but almost everyone ends up with someone very close to their own level. Just go to your local mall and look at the couples there to prove this. Heck, I’ve noticed that couples even start to look _similar_, never mind at the same level of attractiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Coil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Coil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coil)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/39 "2006-03-17T09:36:39Z")
I think this Onion article is spot on for this thread. [url=http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33936]You Are The Most Beautiful Woman in The World Who Will Sleep With Me [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536/40 "2006-03-17T16:33:20Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > The stratification theory we’re discussing here has almost nothing to do with how people perceive themselves. People finding someone of their own level of attractiveness seems to be almost unconscious. I don’t think many people set out to find someone exactly as attractive as they are, but almost everyone ends up with someone very close to their own level. Just go to your local mall and look at the couples there to prove this. Heck, I’ve noticed that couples even start to look _similar_, never mind at the same level of attractiveness. In my particular peer group, I just don’t find this to be true. I hang out with an odd assortment of actors and geeks that span the range from absolute knockouts to outright ugly people- you don’t meet a lot of actors who are average looking. But the queen bee of the group is by no means the prettiest, and I can point to numerous pairings between some of the cutest of the group and some of the real freaky looking people. To me, it seems pretty clear the sheer force of personality drives dating in my peers. There are plenty of other cases where you can see how raw beauty isn’t always related to dating success. I know many girls who are outright knockouts, but are also shy studious types (many of them are immigrants) and their true beauty is almost never seen. Now what people DO arrange themselves by is class similarity. There are countless tiny little class markers- from clothes to teeth to particular haircuts- that we are subconsciously dead on when spotting and which most likely do affect our dating decisions and cause our dates to look similar to us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-social-stratification-in-the-u-s/348536.md?page=3)