# On the Beach, A Clockwork Orange: Are these books/movies Science Fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 30, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092 "2016-05-30T15:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/1 "2016-05-30T15:33:05Z")
I’m not sure where the stylistic lines are drawn for science fiction, and wonder where these two books/movies are, relative to said lines. Both were set in the (then) future and arguably involve advanced scientific concepts. But Nevil Shute’s **On the Beach** seems of a piece with WWII stories like **The Caine Mutiny** , not \*\*Forbidden Planet \*\*or anything like that. And while Anthony Burgess’s **A Clockwork Orange** gets shown a lot at SF conventions, it’s kind of in a genre of its own, owing more to psychology than to the physical sciences. It doesn’t even seem al that closely related to **2001** , thematically. Also, the authors are not primarily science fiction writers. Shute is probably better known for **A Town Like Alice** these days and Burgess mostly wrote things that were a lot less genre-specific (like **The Worm and the Ring** and **Earthly Powers** , although part of **The End of the World News** was SF). Am I overthinking this? Are both of these stories generally considered science fiction? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/2 "2016-05-30T15:49:46Z")
In my opinion, both are clearly science fiction. I think you may just be stereotyping the genre. Some people feel science fiction is zap guns and bug-eyed monsters. Sure, that kind of pulp sci-fi exists but it’s not the whole genre. There are plenty of great works of literature in science fiction as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/3 "2016-05-30T15:53:22Z")
Both of those stories are absolutely, 100% science fiction. Neither one is very similar to _Forbidden Planet_, but that just means that there are many different kinds of science fiction. Although, it’s interesting that that’s your example, given that the main gimmick of _Forbidden Planet_ also drew from the psychological sciences. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/4 "2016-05-30T16:01:22Z")
Absolutely science fiction. The best science fiction has always been a way to explore social and psychological themes. Science fiction doesn’t have to have anything to do with physical sciences. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/5 "2016-05-30T16:10:33Z")
I think I’d call them Speculative Fiction, in that the situations are possible within their timeframes rather than being possible through technological developments that haven’t happened yet. If _On The Beach_ is Science Fiction, is _The Bedford Incident_ Science Fiction as well? Or _Fail Safe_? Having said that, much Speculative Fiction contains an element or two of Science Fiction and you never hear anyone talking about ‘SpecFic’. So I think by default it is grouped with Science Fiction. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/6 "2016-05-30T16:51:23Z")
\*On the Beach \*is science fiction in the most Gernsbackian model: a look at a possible future. It’s a mistake to take the definitions of the words “science” and “fiction” and think it defines the genre. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/7 "2016-05-30T17:14:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Having said that, much Speculative Fiction contains an element or two of Science Fiction and you never hear anyone talking about ‘SpecFic’. So I think by default it is grouped with Science Fiction. As I understand it, one of the reasons the abbreviation “SF” is so popular is that it can stand for either “science fiction” or “speculative fiction”; so you can say that a book is SF without committing yourself to which you mean. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/8 "2016-05-30T17:49:00Z")
I believe (but do not know) that the publishing industry classified a novel to be science fiction if the author has established a reputation for science fiction and is typically classified as such. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/9 "2016-05-30T17:50:36Z")
Absolutely science fiction. If On the Beach is not, then what do you call Judith Merrill’s Shadows on the Hearth, also an after the war story. There are of course hundreds of examples. Clockwork Orange is even more science fiction - not only is it set in the future, but it studies the effects of a piece of technology. I don’t know why you’d think the movie would be similar to 2001? Just because both were directed by Kubrick, coming from very different sources. You might as well wonder about it not being like Lolita. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/10 "2016-05-30T17:51:12Z")
Definitely science fiction, although with an avant-garde bend. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/11 "2016-05-30T17:56:26Z")
Well, in the case of _A Clockwork Orange_, there ought to be no doubt by even the most exacting standards: it is “science fiction” in that the main plot point is driven by extrapolation of the impact of a particular science - that of behavioral conditioning: the “Ludovico technique” in the movie and book. It is what I would call “hard” science fiction, in that it has basically no elements of technology-as-magic or fantasy-swords-and sorcery-set-in-space: it is a serious extrapolation of the potential impact of this branch of science on humanity. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/12 "2016-05-30T17:59:07Z")
Yes, “Beach” is fairly standard post-apocalypse stuff, like “Alas, Babylon” and “Earth Abides”. “Clockwork” is, but seems to be becoming less so day by day. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/13 "2016-05-30T20:50:28Z")
I’ve never read either novel, but in terms of the films I’d say _A Clockwork Orange_ is definitely science fiction in the sub-genre of dystopian future (and just being a Kubrick film nearly makes it a sub-genre unto itself). The film _On the Beach_ however I find less science fiction and more just a straight drama. The only real ‘science fiction-y’ scene is the creepy footage of a lone sailor in a hazmat suit walking thru an abandoned San Diego at the end. The rest of the film takes place in normal, everyday locations. Even the sub is not made to look futuristic at all (because it isn’t necessary for the story). And while an already occurred WWIII is the underlying fact, the drama is still simply about relationships, life, death etc. In fact the film is dated enough that some scenes even trend towards melodrama. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/14 "2016-05-30T21:23:18Z")
Here you go. (Warning: PDF) A peer-reviewed academic paper that not only discusses [how _Forbidden Planet_ is a retelling of Shakespeare’s _The Tempest_,](http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1214&context=clcweb)but does so in the context of what science fiction actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/15 "2016-05-30T22:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > And while an already occurred WWIII is the underlying fact, the drama is still simply about relationships, life, death etc. This is what all fiction is about. And “speculative fiction” is an umbrella term that encompasses several different genres, most notably science fiction, fantasy, and alternate history. So, yes, it’s certainly correct to call _On the Beach_ speculative fiction, but what kind of speculative fiction? Science fiction is the only one that really fits. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/16 "2016-05-30T23:11:39Z")
I have heard from many sources, which of course I cannot cite, that one of the biggest mistakes is to call Science Fiction a genre in the first place. SciFi is a setting. You can have any genre of book played out in a SciFi setting. _A Clockwork Orange_ is a Psychological Thriller, with a SciFi (Near-Future) setting. I have never read or seen _On the Beach_, but here are some more examples: Alien is a horror movie, Aliens is a War Movie, Star Wars (IV) is a Buddy Adventure, Wall-E is a Love Story. They are all in a SciFi setting. As **kunilou** points out, \*Forbidden Planet \* is Shakespeare’s _The Tempest_ in a SciFi setting. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/17 "2016-05-30T23:12:54Z")
Just popping into the thread to say HI! to all my Nerd brethren. Yep, the gang’s all here! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/18 "2016-05-30T23:31:03Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > I have heard from many sources, which of course I cannot cite, that one of the biggest mistakes is to call Science Fiction a genre in the first place. SciFi is a setting. You can have any genre of book played out in a SciFi setting. _A Clockwork Orange_ is a Psychological Thriller, with a SciFi (Near-Future) setting. I have never read or seen _On the Beach_, but here are some more examples: Alien is a horror movie, Aliens is a War Movie, Star Wars (IV) is a Buddy Adventure, Wall-E is a Love Story. They are all in a SciFi setting. As **kunilou** points out, \*Forbidden Planet \* is Shakespeare’s _The Tempest_ in a SciFi setting. I have to disagree: Sci-Fi is a gazillion different settings. All you’re doing is kicking the can down the road: what is (or is not) a sci-fi setting? Science fiction is a genre. It’s just an amazingly broad one, and thus easily broken down into sub-genres. It’s also a fuzzy set with indistinct borders. In a very limited way, The Bedford Incident (mentioned above) is “science fiction” because it’s about the breakdown of a highly technological military system – the Destroyer’s command and launch mechanisms – under human stress. Failsafe goes there too: it looks at our technology and its human interface, and shows us a speculative breakdown model. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/19 "2016-05-31T14:24:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I have to disagree: Sci-Fi is a gazillion different settings. All you’re doing is kicking the can down the road: what is (or is not) a sci-fi setting? > > Science fiction is a genre. It’s just an amazingly broad one, and thus easily broken down into sub-genres. > > It’s also a fuzzy set with indistinct borders. In a very limited way, The Bedford Incident (mentioned above) is “science fiction” because it’s about the breakdown of a highly technological military system – the Destroyer’s command and launch mechanisms – under human stress. ?? I am confused. I can come up with the same exact story set a century and a half earlier. In a Napoleanic Era warship (which is a technological machine in it’s own right), you can also have a breakdown in the chain of command, crushing isolation that drives men insane, or disease that wipes out half the crew. Why is The Bedford Incident Sci-Fi? The presence of a telephone? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092/20 "2016-05-31T14:46:51Z")
Okay, try this: **On the Beach** is science fiction, but the thematically similar film **Crimson Tide** isn’t. Why the difference? (Or were all those _Silver Surfer_ references a breadcrumb in a trail of them?) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-beach-a-clockwork-orange-are-these-books-movies-science-fiction/756092.md?page=2)