# On the brownshirtedness of NYC protesters: An update in the wake of the RNC. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094 "2005-04-13T05:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/81 "2005-04-14T13:12:45Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Good point. I remember quite well how Hitler’s brownshirts took over the Reichstag in the Great Pie-throwing Contest of 1934. :rolleyes: And lets never forget the terror of _Krystalhotsaucenacht_. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/82 "2005-04-14T13:38:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [RL=http://www.boston.com/news/politics/conventions/protesters/]A lot of those protesting in Boston seemed to have been liberals, too - the Kucinich campaign, Run Against Bush, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, etc. > > Again, the pattern seems to be that a mixture of liberals and conservatives protesting against Democrats produces very little provably criminal activity. A predominantly liberal batch protesting against Republicans produces much more. This would then suggest that it’s not liberals who are creating criminal activity, but rather Republicans who are inspiring it. Would you still like to make a point? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/83 "2005-04-14T14:36:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to take one more whack at this dead horse:You’re not even going to be able to get that. > > [A lot of those protesting in Boston seemed to have been liberals, too -](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/conventions/protesters/) the Kucinich campaign, Run Against Bush, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, etc. > > There don’t seem to be as many conservatives at the [RNC protests.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Republican_National_Convention_protest_activity) > > Again, the pattern seems to be that a mixture of liberals and conservatives protesting against Democrats produces very little provably criminal activity. A predominantly liberal batch protesting against Republicans produces much more. > > I’m sure you can make up some other scenarios where this is not the case, but in the real world… > > Regards, > Shodan Well, congratulations, you’ve just offered up an observation that i made all the way back in the OP: > [@mhendo](#): > > a goodly proportion of the anti-DNC protesters in Boston were also, in fact, disaffected Democrats, liberals, and leftists. The question here is not whether a whole lot of conservatives were arrested. The question remains, as it has always remained, whether the number of liberals arrested justify your generalization from this number in order to make sweeping generalizations about liberals/Democrats in general was ever justified. Just out of curiosity, if you were to discover that everyone arrested outside Terri Schiavo’s hospice last month was a conservative, would that lead you to draw any general conclusions about your side of the political fence? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/84 "2005-04-14T15:13:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Why not? > > I mean, especially, in terms of whether or not we can draw conclusions (like **Shodan** has done) about certain groups’ propensity for illegal activity. For exactly the reason you said. Because you’re picking a subset of people with a propensity for illegal activity from a subset of people with a propensity for a particular legal activity rather than from the whole set. In your example, you’ve got 100,000 liberal demonstrators and 10,000 conservative ones. But all of them (except for the 2,000 from the first group and the 400 from the second group) are engaged in entirely legal activity. Choosing “demonstrators” as a subset of each group (liberals and conservatives) is arbitrary – you could as easily choose 100,000 liberal donators and 10,000 conservative ones. The overall sets, liberals and conservatives, is not known from your example. Demonstrating is not the only way to be or to demonstrate that one is liberal or conservative. Perhaps there were only 10,000 conservative demonstrators because the US Open was on that weekend and we all just wrote a check to Bush-Cheney '04 and settled in to watch Tiger. 😉 Perfect example – Eric Rudolf wasn’t a demonstrator (that I know of) but surely everyone would agree that he has a propensity for illegal activities and is associated primarily with conservative ideologies. But under your example he wouldn’t “count” because he’s not in the subset from which you draw candidates. > [@](#): > > I should add that i didn’t offer my hypothetical in the belief that it, by itself, would constitute some sort of evidence for my case. I offered it simply as a counter to the belief that raw numbers tell the whole story, absent any context of percentages, participants, conditions, etc., etc., etc. Fair enough. I’m just saying that using a bad example as a counter to a different bad example isn’t a good way to go about arguing a point. You’re already winning – don’t lose on a technicality. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/85 "2005-04-14T15:20:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again, the pattern seems to be that a mixture of liberals and conservatives protesting against Democrats produces very little provably criminal activity. A predominantly liberal batch protesting against Republicans produces much more. No. You don’t seem to be getting it. You still have not shown that there is any correlation between arrests and criminal activity. You have produced no data whatsoever about criminal activity. Extropolating “criminal activity” from raw arrest numbers is a non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/86 "2005-04-14T15:23:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No. You don’t seem to be getting it. You still have not shown that there is any correlation between arrests and criminal activity. You have produced no data whatsoever about criminal activity. Extropolating “criminal activity” from raw arrest numbers is a non-sequitur. Ah. but he’s not. He’s extrapolating criminal activity from convictions. Which is still a non-sequitor, but that doesn’t seem to bother him much. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/87 "2005-04-14T15:51:16Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > All I know is I’d rather have someone throw pies at commentators than people advocating violence against judges or murdering doctors doing their jobs. First, Delay **wasn’t** advocating violence against judges (despite the left’s desparate and fruitless attempts to frame the debate in that erroneous manner), and he has since apologized for the way he worded that statement, so that dog won’t hunt. As for murdering doctors who are doing their jobs, what Eric Rudolf did was disgusting and indefensible. But would you be honest enough to admit that he is the extreme minority of anti-abortion protestors who gets trotted out here whenever the left gets another black eye because of their embarrassing and violent protestors? We’ll see. > [@tdn](#): > > Ah. but he’s not. He’s extrapolating criminal activity from convictions. Which is still a non-sequitor, but that doesn’t seem to bother him much. Which makes more sense logically: to assume that someone who has been convicted is actually _guilty_ of criminal activity, or to assume that someone who has been convicted (not just arrested, but convicted) is _innocent_ of criminal activity? Seems to me that you are the one more likely to be extrapolating a non-sequitir. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/88 "2005-04-14T15:58:02Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > But would you be honest enough to admit that he is the extreme minority of anti-abortion protestors who gets trotted out here whenever the left gets another black eye because of their embarrassing and violent protestors? We’ll see. I’m absolutely willing to admit it (although I suspect that if the penalties for murdering doctors were as small as the penalties for throwing pies, there would be a helluva lot more dead doctors out there). Let’s see if you’re honest enough to admit that the pie-throwers are an extreme minority of leftists. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/89 "2005-04-14T17:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s see if you’re honest enough to admit that the pie-throwers are an extreme minority of leftists. I have no problem admitting that. I disagree with your suspicion that there would be more dead doctors if the penalty was similar to that received when throwing pies, based simply on the fact that one can be emotionally driven to throw a pie at someone more quickly than one can decide to kill someone. Hitting someone with a pie, while childish and cowardly, is a relatively safe act. Murder on the other hand, could be argued as more cowardly and is certainly much more permanent. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/90 "2005-04-14T17:14:49Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Which makes more sense logically: to assume that someone who has been convicted is actually _guilty_ of criminal activity, or to assume that someone who has been convicted (not just arrested, but convicted) is _innocent_ of criminal activity? We’ve seen right in the OP that the DA was securing convictions by using deceptive and tampered-with evidence. And that witnesses (i.e. cops) were lying on the stand. That alone suggests to me that all bets are off. One thing that hasn’t really been addressed yet is the nature of the crimes charged. Are we talking molotov cocktails here, or just a bit of jaywalking? Before we preemptively send all registered Democrats to Sing Sing, perhaps we should clarify that. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/91 "2005-04-14T18:20:38Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > First, Delay **wasn’t** advocating violence against judges (despite the left’s desparate and fruitless attempts to frame the debate in that erroneous manner), and he has since apologized for the way he worded that statement, so that dog won’t hunt. _Translation:_ He shot off his mouth, the public gasped in shock and horror, and he broke the Guinness Records for World’s Fastest Political Backpedal. And I notice you completely glossed over Edwin Vieira’s endorsement for the assassination of Justice Kennedy, too. > [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > But would you be honest enough to admit that he is the extreme minority of anti-abortion protestors who gets trotted out here whenever the left gets another black eye because of their embarrassing and violent protestors? Sure, but what do numbers have to do with this? A thousand conservative commentators getting pelted with cream pies doesn’t _begin_ to approach the irreversible tragedy of a doctor getting shot by some nutjob. Clothes can be cleaned; dead doctors can’t be resurrected. ---
**Author:** ![NotMrKnowItAll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6bbea6/32.png) [@NotMrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotMrKnowItAll)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/92 "2005-04-14T19:12:22Z")
What crimes were committed, I cannot find any information on that? However, from the group that is doing the mass defense, [NLG-NYC](http://www.nlgnyc.org/rnc/index.html) The following table is offered: > [@](#): > > Dispositions of Republican National Convention Arrests > 351: Dismissed > 1,017: ACD (Adjourned in Contemplation of Dismissal) > 16: Acquitted at Trial > 3: No Charges Filed > 135: Guilty Plea (mostly to reduced charges) > 6: Found Guilty at Trial > 230: Open Cases Pending > 48: Bench Warrants Issued (Missed Court Appearance) > > Compiled by Manhattan District Attorney’s Office as of Jan. 19, 2005. (Source: New York Law Journal, Jan. 24, 2005) So, 6 found guilty, 135 Guilty Pleas. Anybody know what the convictions were(there’s only 6). Further down on the page you will find that many National Lawyers Guild Legal Observers were arrested as well. To me, this supports the idea that the police were arresting blocks of people with wanton abandon. Also, from [Times-up.org](http://www.times-up.org/call_rnc.php), 400 bicyclist were arrested, seemingly for being bicyclist. Would be bicycles were thwarded when the police cut securing chains and made off with their bikes. From [World Change](http://www.times-up.org/call_rnc.php), an arrestee reports his opinion on why there were so many Pleas: > [@](#): > > Yeah, this is mostly old news for me because these dismissals have been discussed on the arrestees listserv–but good to see more of it out in the > public. What it doesn’t say is that most of the “guilty” pleas were entered by people who couldn’t afford to come back to NYC ten more times to fight > it and so just caved in to some really good offer. There have only been a couple of actual convictions and they’ve usually involved unbelievably bogus court proceedings before judges, not juries. To my knowledge, none of > them have been serious crimes–in fact, most are things that would’ve otherwise never gone to trial. > > Anyway, my next court date for the first step in the civil counter-suit is sometime in June. I’m following through on it all the way. He is wrong about the conviction numbers, but it isn’t beyond the realm of belief that pleading to a lesser charge would be account for a goodly number of those 135. Anyone know where I can find this listserv, or digests thereof? So, regarding the question of who were acted illegally, I say it was the city and the police. I feel the evidence is stacking up against them, the doctored evidence, policemen lying, random arrests, and don’t forget about Boomberg refusing to release the protesters even after being order by the courts to do so. > [@(NLG-NYC link at top of post)](#): > > During the convention, State Supreme Court Justice John Cataldo ordered the city to release protesters immediately after lawsuits were brought by the National Lawyers Guild, the Legal Aid Society and Siegel. > > Cataldo held the Bloomberg administration in contempt for keeping as many as 560 protesters, in violation of his repeated orders to release them. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/93 "2005-04-14T19:53:32Z")
Well, that’s interesting. 135 plead down. Having been in court twice in my life, I plead down both times. Not because I was a willful lawbreaker, but because it was the easiest and cheapest way to get out of there and get on with my life. Far easier than getting a lawyer and dragging things out. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/94 "2005-04-14T23:55:17Z")
This is ridiculous. There were _half a million_ protest marchers on the Sunday of the NYC/RNC convention _alone_; the number probably doubled throughout the week. There’s no way in hell the Boston/DNC protests got even 1/10th that much traffic. How can anyone possibly compare the arrests using raw numbers? The very idea is farcical. I can’t speak for what went on in Boston. But I know first hand what was going on in NY. The RNC was guarded by police who, after the march was over, threatened arrest towards exhausted people who were just carrying their signs home. We had to dismantle them and roll 'em up before we could walk off Seventh Avenue on our way to the subway. I’m not surprised the cops were nervous: the Republican politicians and pundits had been hyping the possibility of violence and mayhem for weeks – including all those famous terrorism warnings (remember those? Funny how they almost disappeared after the election). All these predictions went on even though the main groups organizing the protests consistently preached peaceful, orderly protests. Is it any wonder the cops were on edge and got out the riot gear? You want “Brownshirt” behavior? How about the underhanded thugs who slipped into the marching crowd and tried to incite violence during the protest. When we reached the convention site, this band of _agent provocateurs_ shouted “let’s storm the barricades” in loud voices – all with smirks on their faces, clearly hoping we’d be stupid enough to follow their commands. Our group of marchers told them to shut the fuck up and kept walking without incident. The thugs left the march in disappointment – probably on their way back to watch the convention on FOX and jack off. Again, I have no idea what went on in Boston. But unless they had nearly a million people during the convention week – doubtful! – the comparison is utterly meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/95 "2005-04-15T04:17:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to take one more whack at this dead horse:You’re not even going to be able to get that. > > [A lot of those protesting in Boston seemed to have been liberals, too -](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/conventions/protesters/) the Kucinich campaign, Run Against Bush, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, etc. > > There don’t seem to be as many conservatives at the [RNC protests.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Republican_National_Convention_protest_activity) > > Again, the pattern seems to be that a mixture of liberals and conservatives protesting against Democrats produces very little provably criminal activity. A predominantly liberal batch protesting against Republicans produces much more. > > I’m sure you can make up some other scenarios where this is not the case, but in the real world… > > Regards, > Shodan Way to avoid a substantive response to **mhendo** ’s question at post #73. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/96 "2005-04-15T15:53:18Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Again, I have no idea what went on in Boston. But unless they had nearly a million people during the convention week – doubtful! – the comparison is utterly meaningless. As I’ve said, I got the hell out of Dodge for that week, but people who stayed told me that Boston was practically a ghost town. It was pretty much a non-event. ---
**Author:** ![Andros\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Andros\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andros_X)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094/97 "2005-04-16T04:15:53Z")
This seems relevant to me – one of the protestors [wrote a detailed account](http://www.2600.com/rnc2004/) of his experiences with the NYPD. He was charged with Disorderly Conduct, but later [those charges were dropped](http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/2120). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-brownshirtedness-of-nyc-protesters-an-update-in-the-wake-of-the-rnc/299094.md?page=4)