# On the clock - 2008 NFL Draft **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 22, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429 "2008-04-22T18:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/21 "2008-04-23T02:56:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I just saw on the crawl that the NFL has told the Rams they are NOT allowed to negotiate with anyone now that the Dolphins have signed Long. I think that sucks; I’d love to see the Rams hammer out a deal in the next couple days, then the Falcons follow suit, and have the draft effectively start with the Raiders. [/QUOTE] This just doesn’t make any sense. Any argument that applies to the 2nd pick also applies to the first overall pick. Weird rule. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/22 "2008-04-23T03:07:37Z")
Who are some of the lowest draft picks to become big stars? Who is the lowest to make a roster? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/23 "2008-04-23T03:20:50Z")
I’m not sure why the Rams can’t negotiate with their choice. But that doesn’t mean they can’t have any contact with the player they want, and they have a lot of time to field offers and make decisions. **MadTheSwine** , I’m hardly a draft expert, but you may have heard that Tom Brady was a sixth round pick. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/24 "2008-04-23T03:27:39Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] Who are some of the lowest draft picks to become big stars? Who is the lowest to make a roster? [/QUOTE] [Mr. Irrelevant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Irrelevant). > [@](#): > > Several players who have been presented with this dubious honor have nevertheless succeeded in making the team that drafted them, with significant contributions on the field. Bill Kenney, who won the 1978 Mr. Irrelevant award under special circumstances (see below), was even honored with an invitation to the Pro Bowl in 1983. Special-teams player Marty Moore became the first Mr. Irrelevant to play in a Super Bowl, with the New England Patriots in Super Bowl XXXI. Jim Finn was the starting fullback for the New York Giants. Mike Green has been a starting safety for the Bears and is currently a backup for the Seahawks. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/25 "2008-04-23T03:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] Who are some of the lowest draft picks to become big stars? Who is the lowest to make a roster? [/QUOTE] Priest Holmes was undrafted, as was Kurt Warner. But including undrafted players probably opens up a can of worms diluting the question. Starting FB Jim Finn had a good career with the Giants after being the forgotten man in Indianapolis for a few years. (He was put on IR before the 2007 season, during which the Giants signed and extended Madison Hedgecock, so Finn is pretty much done now.) Finn was a Mr. Irrelevant, drafted dead last. ETA: Denver got a couple great steals, drafting TE Shannon Sharpe in the 7th round and RB Terrell Davis in the 6th. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/26 "2008-04-23T03:39:28Z")
I think **Vernon Gholston** with be a draft bust. He reminds me of Alonzo Spellman. I think **Chris Long** is going to be a disappointment. He’s a high effort guy but I think he’s maxed out his potential and as of right now he’s not better than a 3rd down pass rush specialist or part of a platoon system. I think **Branden Albert** is going to be as good as advertised and he’d be worth the 5th overall pick if the Chiefs took him there. His ceiling is higher as a guard than as a tackle, at least in his first couple seasons, but he will perform well in either spot. I think **Ryan Clady** is going to be the worst of the tackles drafted in the first round and I think he will really struggle. O-Line is the position where opposing competition has the biggest impact and at Boise he didn’t see the type of attack that Long or Williams saw. Denver will make good use of him because of his decent footwork, but in a traditional system he’ll get bull rushed to death. I think **Glenn Dorsey** is going to have a injury riddled career. His legs are tiny and I think that he’ll be nagged by constant injuries even if he is productive when he plays. I think **James Hardy** will be the most productive WR in this draft of WR busts. I think **Aqib Talib** will be one of the worst picks of the draft. He will get burned multiple times a game and any team that uses a first round pick on him will rue the day. I think **Joe Flacco** will be just as good a player as **Matt Ryan** and that both will be successful but not dominant. I think **Brohm, Henne** and **Booty** will all be career backups. **Colt Brennan** is the only QB after the 2nd tier that will develop into a starter in the NFL due to his accuracy. I think both **Chris Johnson** and **Steve Slaton** will be exceptional values after the 3rd round and both will be extremely productive at the top level. Both will come of the field in goal line situations but will be successful in a committee approach. I think **Jonathan Stewart** is a huge gamble and I think his foot surgery will limit his speed. He will have an unproductive 2008 and will have a worse career than the two above. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/27 "2008-04-23T03:52:17Z")
I think I’m with you on Clady and Talib. Otah scares the bejeezus out of me because he’s just got “big” going for him. He’s “raw” and “unpolished”, which usually mean “gives up bone-crushing sacks because he just recently learned what a football is”. I don’t want Mendenhall. He runs too upright (little problem) and only had one good season despite being the starter for multiple seasons (red flag!) I think Glenn Dorsey will translate nicely to the pros. I’m also with you on Vernon Gholston. He’s going to have to become an outside linebacker and he’ll only be as good as his cover skills are. In a zone-blitzing system, his flaws will be covered up, but I don’t see it with him. Malcolm Kelly is the real deal, but if you want a sleeper for receiver, look for Dexter Jackson and Armanti Edwards. They’re no joke. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/28 "2008-04-23T04:08:13Z")
Jared Allen was traded to the Vikings for a package of picks ([Story](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3362701) ). Allen has also reportedly agreed on terms to a new contract with the Vikings. Incredible offensive and defensive lines the Vikings have put together, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/29 "2008-04-23T04:16:53Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] Jared Allen was traded to the Vikings for a package of picks ([Story](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3362701) ). Allen has also reportedly agreed on terms to a new contract with the Vikings. Incredible offensive and defensive lines the Vikings have put together, eh? [/QUOTE] I think this is the right move. The Chiefs got a pretty good return (even if it’s a 1st and 3rd) on the trade for a guy who was one-and-done. I think the Vikes overpaid but at the same time I’m not thrilled about the prospect of playing against Allen twice a season. I can’t believe that the Bengals turned down a similar offer for Chad Johnson, I understand the principle of not giving into these types of demands, but it would have been the best move for the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/30 "2008-04-23T04:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] I don’t want Mendenhall. He runs too upright (little problem) and only had one good season despite being the starter for multiple seasons (red flag!) [/QUOTE] Hey, I hope you are right, I would _hate_ to face Mendenhall twice a season. The guy is a load. But, at the same time, I’m fundamentally opposed to drafting an RB in the first round, especially one that got as many carries as he did. Plus…I will be rooting for the guy to succeed and you don’t do that when you go to the Lions. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/31 "2008-04-23T04:20:17Z")
I’m wondering - what do you all people think of Adarius Bowman - WR, Oklahoma State. I think he’s a dang good reciever, but I have the bias of rooting for him at school. I know his end of year injuries have hurt him, and he did not have a good combine. But he’s dang good at making the catch and running with it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/32 "2008-04-23T04:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive] I’m wondering - what do you all people think of Adarius Bowman - WR, Oklahoma State. I think he’s a dang good reciever, but I have the bias of rooting for him at school. I know his end of year injuries have hurt him, and he did not have a good combine. But he’s dang good at making the catch and running with it. [/QUOTE] I haven’t seen him play much but based on the scouting reports I hate a guy with iffy hands. He’s got all the measurables and was pretty productive but he won’t have a huge athletic advantage at the next level and thats were polished routes, timing and hands come into play. Those are his weaknesses and I guess teams will have to decide if he can learn that or not. If he’s there in the late 4th round for the Bears I think I might get excited if they took him though. There are an awful lot of WR prospects coming out of the Big 12 this draft. Makes me wonder if perhaps the DBs in the Big 12 sucked and inflated some stats for these guys. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/33 "2008-04-23T04:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] Jared Allen was traded to the Vikings for a package of picks ([Story](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3362701) ). Allen has also reportedly agreed on terms to a new contract with the Vikings. Incredible offensive and defensive lines the Vikings have put together, eh? [/QUOTE] I think their offensive line is overrated for reasons I mentioned [during the season](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9285249&postcount=34): > [@](#): > > By the way, is Minnesota’s offensive line so immobile by scheme, or do they scheme that way because Minnesota’s line is so immobile? They have such a one dimensional running game that I’m not surprised it may be starting to get shut down. There was almost no misdirection whatsoever. No pulls, no traps, barely any down blocking or reach blocking, no stretches. They seemed to have about 5 running plays, all drive blocking with no movement from anyone. > > If they keep that up, teams with good run support corners are just going to have their D-line play disciplined gap control and send the sam, mike, and playside safety shooting the playside A and B gaps with the backside safety pursuing and the will playing contain. A one-gap team with quick, penetrating DTs is even better shape if they can beat the slow O-lineman off the ball on off-tackle runs. > > They need to get, at least, some misdirection in there to punish the overpursuit, and actually consider possibly getting their lightning fast and agile running back stretched out and in space. What’s interesting is that purists will say that you build from the lines out (which I agree with) and that the key to winning is running and stopping the run (which I think is too simple and taken too far). By those measures, Minnesota should be the best team in the league. They run best and stop the run best. The best parts of their team are clearly the lines. Yet they’re mediocre to decent. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/34 "2008-04-23T04:59:28Z")
I think your assumption is wrong. Lines don’t fundamentally need to pull and trap. A good line’s bread and butter should be drive blocking and if you can win straight up you don’t need to do anything else. The reasons the Viking started getting shut down has nothing to do with their blocking scheme it has to do with the complete lack of a passing threat. Misdirection isn’t how you keep pursuit honest, play action, screens and short, quick passes are. Misdirection is how underpowered lines can beat a defense when the heads up drive blocking doesn’t work. The Vikes could generally overpower everyone they faced but until that can force teams to not put 8 men in the box by throwing they’ll come up short anyways. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/35 "2008-04-23T05:24:03Z")
**Omniscient** has a good point here. Any sort of passing game to keep the opponent’s defense honest would make their offense at least twice as effective, and likely more. Their failings weren’t necessarily there even, but more likely in their complete failure to stop the pass. The Vikings made a lot of bad offenses look good last season, and it was entirely through the air. The Vikings proved you can’t win _just_ with a great running game and a great run defense. If they had _anything_ from their passing game and passing defense, they would have gone a lot farther. **SenorBeef** , you can be right and still be wrong. You’re partly right, there is no deception or variety to the Vikings run game. But there doesn’t have to be! I know Adrian Peterson is an incredible talent, but look at Shaun Alexander. As **Ellis Dee** mentioned, a lot of his success came from his line. So too would it be fair to attribute a lot of the success of Adrian Peterson to his line. I’ll tell you this: in every game I saw of the Vikings last season, Adrian Peterson was running through holes as big as my car. **I** could have rushed for 1000 yards behind that line, no joke. It’s hard to justify calling a line that blocked for the NFL’s highest single game rushing total, and cut a path for a 1300 yard, 12 TD _rookie_, overrated. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/36 "2008-04-23T05:35:18Z")
The lack of a passing game certainly does inhibit things in the run game, of course. But they had a horrible passing game all year. If anything, their passing game started to get better at the end of the year. Jackson’s best QB rating through week 10 was a 75 - in weeks 12 through 17 he had 4 games of 90+. And yet Peterson averaged 2.6 yards per rush for the last 4 games against defenses that weren’t great. My guess is that defenses adjusted for the inflexibility of the Minnesota blocking scheme. They’re monster drive blockers 1 on 1 I admit, but teams can just do what I described to overload the line at the point of attack. The best way to punish such a thing is to use misdirection and mobility… Minnesota didn’t, and as a result, their running game was mostly shut down at the end of the season. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/37 "2008-04-23T05:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Jackson’s best QB rating through week 10 was a 75 - in weeks 12 through 17 he had 4 games of 90+. And yet Peterson averaged 2.6 yards per rush for the last 4 games against defenses that weren’t great. [/QUOTE] Are you honestly missing the connection here? Jackson had better passing numbers in the last 4 weeks because those teams were _completely_ selling out to stop Peterson and the Vikes run game. They were putting 9 guys in the box. Even Peterson and a great line will eventually fold under a concerted effort to stop them, no matter the blocking scheme. Jackson didn’t improve, defenses just started totally ignoring him. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/38 "2008-04-23T05:51:10Z")
I understand your point and you may be right. But look at, for example, the Baltimore Ravens of 2000-2004 or so. They were in a similar position - no QB, good drive blocking line, very good RB. They usually faced a stacked box, often with even 9 men in the box. But they managed to run pretty well anyway. Because although their primary strength was driveblocking, they used misdirection and cutbacks. Having 9 men in the box means that you may be stuffed, but when you successfully get them to attack the wrong point, you have few defenders to cover the rest of the field. Get a lineman or two out in front of the remaining defenders who are behind the LOS and break off a big run. Do that a few times and the defenders start backing off and playing more cautiously, which increases the efficiency of your primary drive blocking game. You can still scheme to run against the defense stacking up against your run. I have my doubts that you can have an effective run game with no misdirection or mobility from the linemen. The game of football is so rooted in deception that it’s jarring to see a team that uses so little. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/39 "2008-04-23T06:50:50Z")
Of course a versatile line that can drive block, trap, zone block etc. is the ideal situation. The more thing you do well the more effective you’ll be. It’s pretty much indisputable. However I think a line _can_ be good if they excel at just one facet, especially if that facet is drive blocking. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429/40 "2008-04-23T06:57:40Z")
Well, we’ll see how the Vikings adapt and if they change their run system or playcalling next year. I suspect that if they don’t, it won’t be unusual that teams with the right makeup and gameplan shut them down almost completely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-clock-2008-nfl-draft/446429.md?page=3)