# On the Future Governance of the United Kingdom **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617 "2015-05-09T11:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/61 "2015-05-11T11:22:36Z")
The difference is that UK courts, not EU courts, will determine whether those rights are being secured or not. As is the case in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/62 "2015-05-11T11:35:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The difference is that UK courts, not EU courts, will determine whether those rights are being secured or not. As is the case in Germany. No. The ECHR has no power to require a change in the law or judicial practice of any member state. There are no protocols on enforcement or effect of ECHR beyond a finding that the point considered ‘is or is not in accord with the Convention’. It does not change any law. What it does is put pressure on the state concerned to meet its Treaty obligations. All it can do is declare non-compliance. This was the pattern before, during and after the passing or repeal of the HRA. Let us look at a case of Human Rights with and without the HRA. There are two situations- the case before 1998 and the case after any future legislation. In case 1 the claim is progressed through the British Courts which give effect to ECHR findings. Most cases are settled internally. In case 2 the claim is progressed through the British Courts which ignore the effect of ECHR findings. Most cases require appeal to the ECHR to have applied the effect of previous ECHR findings. Most cases will be decided by the ECHR. It is smoke and mirrors in an attempt to convince followers that they have acted against the ECHR, when all they are doing is to pass responsibility up to the ECHR. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/63 "2015-05-11T11:37:27Z")
Are you suggesting that German citizens cannot bring a case to the ECHR after teir Constitutional Court has ruled against them? If so - cite? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/64 "2015-05-11T11:49:14Z")
Joshua Rosenberg suggests that no move may be made on the issue of the ECHR for several years and maybe not even then. > **[Why human rights reform could trip up Michael Gove | Joshua Rozenberg](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/11/human-rights-reform-michael-gove-justice-secretary)** > > Of all the tasks awaiting the new justice secretary – legal aid, building bridges with judges – scrapping the Human Rights Act is the trickiest ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/65 "2015-05-11T11:52:46Z")
I assume your long silence and lack of cites means that you are reconsidering your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/66 "2015-05-11T11:59:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Are you suggesting that German citizens cannot bring a case to the ECHR after teir Constitutional Court has ruled against them? > > If so - cite? No, I’m suggesting that, unlike in the UK under the HRA, the result of that appeal would not affect anything in Germany. The HRA forces UK courts to recognise European Court rulings as precedent. That’s what is supposed to be being changed. It’s arguments like this that will lead to people voting to leave the EU, if it doesn’t get settled before the referendum. I’ve no doubt that a majority of people want sovereignty returned to our government, and if that doesn’t happen any economic arguments in favour of remaining in will be much harder to make. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/67 "2015-05-11T12:26:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m suggesting that, unlike in the UK under the HRA, the result of that appeal would not affect anything in Germany. > > The HRA forces UK courts to recognise European Court rulings as precedent. That’s what is supposed to be being changed. > > It’s arguments like this that will lead to people voting to leave the EU, if it doesn’t get settled before the referendum. I’ve no doubt that a majority of people want sovereignty returned to our government, and if that doesn’t happen any economic arguments in favour of remaining in will be much harder to make. Agreed. After the HRA s repealed, UK courts will not be (but may choose to be) persuaded by ECHR findings on similar cases. If the appellant finds that the UK SC finding is contrary to ECHR case law, they will have the right to appeal directly to the ECHR. You do not understand the treaty and its relationship to signatories. The ECHR is purely persuasive-it never alters signatory states’ laws. All it can do is shame governments. As Rosenberg points out, the FO would not want to act against the Convention if it intends to use Russia’s membership of it as a tool. Se will remain bound by the European Convention in the long term. All else is smoke and mirrors. Now that the Tories are back, these proposals will be on the back burner. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/68 "2015-05-11T12:30:18Z")
Currently trending on SNP fora is the question of whether the SNP should take up its due quota of Peers in order to maximise its blocking powers in he Lords. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/69 "2015-05-11T12:44:55Z")
I’m afraid the complexities of this elude me but apparently [the Good Friday Agreement hinders the UK’s ability to repeal the HRA](http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/oct/03/northern-ireland-good-friday-human-rights). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/70 "2015-05-11T12:50:26Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m afraid the complexities of this elude me but apparently [the Good Friday Agreement hinders the UK’s ability to repeal the HRA](http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/oct/03/northern-ireland-good-friday-human-rights). So repeal may only be possible in England and Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/71 "2015-05-11T14:06:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m suggesting that, unlike in the UK under the HRA, the result of that appeal would not affect anything in Germany. > > The HRA forces UK courts to recognise European Court rulings as precedent. That’s what is supposed to be being changed. > > It’s arguments like this that will lead to people voting to leave the EU, if it doesn’t get settled before the referendum. I’ve no doubt that a majority of people want sovereignty returned to our government, and if that doesn’t happen any economic arguments in favour of remaining in will be much harder to make. I assume that with no supporting cites you are accepting that we shall still have the right to appeal directly to the ECHR even after Gove has done his worst. The whole policy is smoke and mirrors to appease the Tory right. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/72 "2015-05-11T15:40:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > even after Gove has done his worst. And with Gove, it’s all “his worst”. Even his best is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/73 "2015-05-11T18:05:05Z")
Support for the contention that Scotland at least is protected from any Gove assault on Human Rights. [http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scotland-exempt-from-tories-human-rights-act-axe-1-3559633](http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scotland-exempt-from-tories-human-rights-act-axe-1-3559633) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/74 "2015-05-11T18:41:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Support for the contention that Scotland at least is protected from any Gove assault on Human Rights. Where are you getting the idea that there’s any plans for an assault on human rights? You claim to have read the plan, which makes it clear that the entire ECHR will be enshrined in British law. The _only_ change will be to break the statutory requirement to recognise the European court, a court that has shown no concern with human rights and an overriding concern with politics - something no legitimate out would consider. One of the great strengths of (most of) the UK is an independent judiciary, and anything that strengthens that is good. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/75 "2015-05-11T18:42:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And with Gove, it’s all “his worst”. Even his best is the worst. I know, that utter bastard, expecting teachers to actually educate children. What a disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/76 "2015-05-11T18:46:30Z")
I agree that the domestic effect of abolishing the HRA is overblown, but I fear what impact it would have on foreign countries. Russia would love to point to the UK as an excuse for it to ‘reform’ the domestic functioning of the Convention within its borders… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/77 "2015-05-11T18:50:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Where are you getting the idea that there’s any plans for an assault on human rights? You claim to have read the plan, which makes it clear that the entire ECHR will be enshrined in British law. The _only_ change will be to break the statutory requirement to recognise the European court, a court that has shown no concern with human rights and an overriding concern with politics - something no legitimate out would consider. > > One of the great strengths of (most of) the UK is an independent judiciary, and anything that strengthens that is good. The whole Tory argument behind the proposals is to make having your Human Rights under the Convention difficult to enforce. It will prolong every difficult case until it gets to Europe. You can bet that the English and Welsh Bill of Rights (Scotland and N Ireland will still have the convention in their law) will not allow family life or prisoners rights to be protected and people will have to appeal over the SC to have their rights respected, whereas in Scotland and Northern Ireland the courts will still see ECHR rulings without having to wait for Europe. Gove was not able to mess with our rather wonderful Education system, centralised, local authority run, no business based academies, no need to move house to get a good school, no SATs, no league tables and we love it. Glad he will not be able to mess with our human rights either. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/78 "2015-05-11T18:51:41Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I agree that the domestic effect of abolishing the HRA is overblown, but I fear what impact it would have on foreign countries. Russia would love to point to the UK as an excuse for it to ‘reform’ the domestic functioning of the Convention within its borders… That is why the FO will never allow it. I have been ploughing this furrow for years. It is all smoke and mirrors to please the backwoodsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/79 "2015-05-11T18:54:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One of the great strengths of (most of) the UK is an independent judiciary, and anything that strengthens that is good. You do realise that by ordering the courts which rulings it can take notice of IS political interference in an Independent Judiciary. This has been the hallmark of Tory policy- increased interference in judicial decisions by politicians. Think back to Michael Howard and work forwards. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/80 "2015-05-11T19:35:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You do realise that by ordering the courts which rulings it can take notice of IS political interference in an Independent Judiciary. > > This has been the hallmark of Tory policy- increased interference in judicial decisions by politicians. Think back to Michael Howard and work forwards. Nonsense. Telling the courts that they must take notice of precedence outside of our judicial system is the only interference. If the court happens to agree with Strasbourg, they can act in the same way. I agree with you that politicians shouldn’t be involved in sentencing, beyond drafting laws that specify the appropriate sentences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617.md?page=5)