# On the Future Governance of the United Kingdom **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617 "2015-05-09T11:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/121 "2015-05-11T23:36:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, find me the ruling of a lower court that’s relevant. All UK courts are bound by the ruling currently because that is the law- the HRA. This is the thing that Gove’s folly seeks to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/122 "2015-05-11T23:38:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Help me by providing a cite for that please. I have done, repeatedly. You’ve said you read it. It says that the ECHR will be binding UK law, and the European Court will be advisory. You know, the same as in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/123 "2015-05-11T23:40:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They can say what they like, their advisory ruling is only that. It is only ever advisory, but ignoring the advice has consequences. The fact has not altered since we first signed. The ECHR has no tools to change British law and never has had. We have always agreed voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/124 "2015-05-11T23:41:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > England and Wales, not UK. Please respect the difference. > > It may not effect the law in England and Wales but will continue to do so in Scotland and N Ireland. > > What it will do for England and Wales is to leave the UK in non-compliance with the Convention. No, it will be UK law. There isn’t currently English and Welsh law, something that this government wants to change as well, but until then I’ll refer to it correctly. And the UK will not be in non-compliance unless the Supreme Court says so. Any “higher” rulings are only advisory. The stupid thing is that it will change absolutely nothing in practice, except hopefully shut up Europe claiming rights over our Government and courts it doesn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/125 "2015-05-11T23:43:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is only ever advisory, but ignoring the advice has consequences. The fact has not altered since we first signed. The ECHR has no tools to change British law and never has had. > > We have always agreed voluntarily. It only has consequences if we breach the treaty. Which we are not doing, we are incorporating it into domestic law. The _exact opposite_ of not following it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/126 "2015-05-11T23:43:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The former would have to be decide by the Supreme Court, and the latter is outright false. Contravention is finally solely the decision of the Strasbourg Court. National Courts cannot change the administrative fact of contravention. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/127 "2015-05-11T23:44:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I have done, repeatedly. You’ve said you read it. It says that the ECHR will be binding UK law, and the European Court will be advisory. You know, the same as in Germany. Only the bare words of the Convention. Not the case law. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/128 "2015-05-11T23:47:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Contravention is finally solely the decision of the Strasbourg Court. National Courts cannot change the administrative fact of contravention. They can advise us that we’re in contravention, and I’m sure the government will give that advice all due heed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/129 "2015-05-11T23:49:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it will be UK law. There isn’t currently English and Welsh law, something that this government wants to change as well, but until then I’ll refer to it correctly. > > And the UK will not be in non-compliance unless the Supreme Court says so. Any “higher” rulings are only advisory. > > The stupid thing is that it will change absolutely nothing in practice, except hopefully shut up Europe claiming rights over our Government and courts it doesn’t have. You just do not understand the Constitution or the convention. There is English and Welsh law- all those laws that cover England and or Wales. It has existed since Tudor times when Scotland had a completely different Law and Ireland was a colony. After Union of the Parliaments there was Scottish Law, and English and Welsh law and subsequently British Law. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/130 "2015-05-11T23:49:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Only the bare words of the Convention. Not the case law. Yes. Exactly. That’s the whole point. Glad you finally understand. The “bare words”, of course, being the actual, agreed upon rights people have, not some arbitrary add-ons made later without consultation. Case law from a non-UK court is irrelevant to UK law. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/131 "2015-05-11T23:51:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You just do not understand the Constitution or the convention. > > There is English and Welsh law- all those laws that cover England and or Wales. It has existed since Tudor times when Scotland had a completely different Law and Ireland was a colony. > > After Union of the Parliaments there was Scottish Law, and English and Welsh law and subsequently British Law. Yes. Exactly. British law. That’s what I’m talking about. Do you enjoy constantly contradicting yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/132 "2015-05-11T23:53:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it will be UK law. There isn’t currently English and Welsh law, something that this government wants to change as well, but until then I’ll refer to it correctly. > > And the UK will not be in non-compliance unless the Supreme Court says so. Any “higher” rulings are only advisory. > > The stupid thing is that it will change absolutely nothing in practice, except hopefully shut up Europe claiming rights over our Government and courts it doesn’t have. You just do not understand the Constitution or the convention. There is English and Welsh law- all those laws that cover England and or Wales. It has existed since Tudor times when Scotland had a completely different Law and Ireland was a colony. After Union of the Parliaments there was Scottish Law, and English and Welsh law and subsequently British Law. Northern Ireland has its body of law. Wales now has its own body of law since devolution. Justice is a devolved issue for N Ireland and Scotland and Gove has no authority over N Irish or Scottish Courts, Justice systems or prisons and probation etc. The HRA is embedded in N Irish and Scottish Law without the HRA. You must stop seeing everything as if England meant UK. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/133 "2015-05-11T23:55:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. Exactly. British law. That’s what I’m talking about. > > Do you enjoy constantly contradicting yourself? Do you understand what devolved powers means. Justice is devolved and Scotland decides its own judicial rules, rules of evidence, what can be considered by courts, how it runs its prisons. Gove does not get to interfere. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/134 "2015-05-11T23:56:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. Exactly. That’s the whole point. Glad you finally understand. > > The “bare words”, of course, being the actual, agreed upon rights people have, not some arbitrary add-ons made later without consultation. > > Case law from a non-UK court is irrelevant to UK law. No. As part of the Convention we are bound to the case law as well. Simply printing the text in London does not change our treaty obligations. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/135 "2015-05-12T00:11:01Z")
Aah. The Steophan and Pjen show. Sure hope it gets renewed for another season. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/136 "2015-05-12T00:13:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Aah. The Steophan and Pjen show. Sure hope it gets renewed for another season. It is sad but he posts so much erroneous and unsupported political guff, especially about devolution, that he needs rebutting until he begins to understand the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/137 "2015-05-12T00:33:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is sad but he posts so much erroneous and unsupported political guff, especially about devolution, that he needs rebutting until he begins to understand the real world. There’s not one single devolved power that can’t be returned to Westminster at the whim of Parliament. That’s really all there is to it. Your claim that the Government can’t change Scottish law is completely false. You have the attitude that the way you think the world should be is the way it actually is. You may well be right about the way the world should be, but that doesn’t really matter when you’re wrong about how it is. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/138 "2015-05-12T00:34:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. As part of the Convention we are bound to the case law as well. Simply printing the text in London does not change our treaty obligations. We are obliged to take European rulings under advisement. I’m sure we’ll pay them all due heed, and discharge our obligations. Just like Germany does. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/139 "2015-05-12T00:38:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s not one single devolved power that can’t be returned to Westminster at the whim of Parliament. That’s really all there is to it. Your claim that the Government can’t change Scottish law is completely false. You have the attitude that the way you think the world should be is the way it actually is. > > You may well be right about the way the world should be, but that doesn’t really matter when you’re wrong about how it is. Your views are straightjacketed and blinkered. After the result last Thursday, no devolved power is going to be taken back, not because of the law but because of the consequences. Attitudes such as yours will destroy the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617/140 "2015-05-12T00:40:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > We are obliged to take European rulings under advisement. I’m sure we’ll pay them all due heed, and discharge our obligations. Just like Germany does. What on earth do you mean by taking a ruling under advisement. A state is either compliant or not compliant with the Convention. Only the Brand Chamber has the final say. States can choose to ignore the rulings but need to be aware of the possible consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-future-governance-of-the-united-kingdom/719617.md?page=8)