# On the Many Failings of Capitalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911 "2015-01-15T17:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/341 "2015-06-01T07:36:35Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > Capitalism > > [Capitalism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) > > requires continues economic growth because of capital accumulation No it doesn’t. **John Mace** beat me to that punch. > [@](#): > > [Capital accumulation - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_accumulation) > > which means more material resources and energy needed to back up increasing credit No it doesn’t. It refers to accumulation of **value**. > [@](#): > > [How much oil growth do we need to support world GDP growth? | Our Finite World](http://ourfiniteworld.com/2012/07/18/how-much-oil-growth-do-we-need-to-support-world-gdp-growth/) Correlation is not causation. > [@](#): > > unless only credit is increased: > > [http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/top-derivatives-expert-finally-gives-a-credible-estimate-of-the-size-of-the-global-derivatives-market.html](http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/top-derivatives-expert-finally-gives-a-credible-estimate-of-the-size-of-the-global-derivatives-market.html) Not relevant - recall the Dutch Tulip scandal, the South Sea Bubble, etc. > [@](#): > > while masking the threat of a resource crunch (see peak oil and Limits to Growth threads for details). Not relevant to your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/342 "2015-06-01T13:39:26Z")
> [@ralfy](#): > > The central problem of capitalism is that it requires continuous economic growth (involving increasing use of material resources and energy coupled with increasing credit levels) in a biosphere with physical limitations. I think you’ve got the tail wagging the dog. Capitalism doesn’t require continuous economic growth; it produces continuous economic growth. And the economy is not limited to just physical products. It also includes ideas. So the fact that there is a finite amount of physical material in the world creates a demand for more efficient ways to use that material. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/343 "2015-06-01T13:49:12Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Before 1900 consumers did not buy many machines, and what they did buy tended to last like sewing machines that could last 100 years. Technology moves on. You’ll notice that nobody is buying Model T’s anymore. Modern cars are better than Model T’s. And the cars of 2115 will be significantly better than today’s cars. People don’t want to drive a car based on hundred year old technology. So there’s no point in manufacturing a car that will last for a hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/344 "2015-06-01T13:53:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think you’ve got the tail wagging the dog. Capitalism doesn’t require continuous economic growth; it produces continuous economic growth. > > And the economy is not limited to just physical products. It also includes ideas. So the fact that there is a finite amount of physical material in the world creates a demand for more efficient ways to use that material. Even if one were concerned about the amount of physical material available to us to use, I think maybe people are underestimating exactly how large this planet it. Practically speaking, human use of the physical matter making up the Earth - even limiting it to the biosphere and the very upper skin of the lithosphere - is pretty tiny, and what we have used can often be reused over and over. I mean, the world has some economic problems, but “running out of material to work with” is absolutely not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/345 "2015-06-01T13:57:26Z")
It all ties into the Ralfsters world view about Peak Oil. Everything he reads indicates, to him, that the end is neigh. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/346 "2015-06-01T16:10:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > that the end is neigh. Whoa! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/347 "2015-06-01T16:13:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Whoa! Did you look it in the mouth to see if it’s a good gift? We know that Ralfy has already beat it to death, but there might still be some value… ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/348 "2015-06-01T16:17:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It all ties into the Ralfsters world view about Peak Oil. Everything he reads indicates, to him, that the end is neigh. This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whinny. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/349 "2015-06-01T16:18:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Technology moves on. > > You’ll notice that nobody is buying Model T’s anymore. Modern cars are better than Model T’s. And the cars of 2115 will be significantly better than today’s cars. > > People don’t want to drive a car based on hundred year old technology. So there’s no point in manufacturing a car that will last for a hundred years. My current vehicle is 20 years old, and the coolest technology it has is keyless entry (which stopped working a few months ago). As much a I hate car shopping, I think it’s time… ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/350 "2015-06-02T03:41:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No it doesn’t. **John Mace** beat me to that punch. Yes, it does. That’s the source of capital. More details in the next link. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t. It refers to accumulation of **value**. Actually, it’s accumulation of money, and that’s money used to expand businesses. So, yes it does. > [@](#): > > Correlation is not causation. Actually, it is, unless one can show that the oil consumed was used for non-economic purposes. That is highly unlikely. > [@](#): > > Not relevant - recall the Dutch Tulip scandal, the South Sea Bubble, etc. Extremely relevant, as seen in the previous financial crash, and now fears of a new one after eight years of “recovery”. > [@](#): > > Not relevant to your claims. Highly relevant, unless one imagines a global economy run purely on money. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/351 "2015-06-02T03:44:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think you’ve got the tail wagging the dog. Capitalism doesn’t require continuous economic growth; it produces continuous economic growth. Where do you think the capital to create and expand businesses come from? > [@](#): > > And the economy is not limited to just physical products. It also includes ideas. So the fact that there is a finite amount of physical material in the world creates a demand for more efficient ways to use that material. Yes, something like this: [http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/top-derivatives-expert-finally-gives-a-credible-estimate-of-the-size-of-the-global-derivatives-market.html](http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/top-derivatives-expert-finally-gives-a-credible-estimate-of-the-size-of-the-global-derivatives-market.html) ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/352 "2015-06-02T03:48:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Technology moves on. > > You’ll notice that nobody is buying Model T’s anymore. Modern cars are better than Model T’s. And the cars of 2115 will be significantly better than today’s cars. > > People don’t want to drive a car based on hundred year old technology. So there’s no point in manufacturing a car that will last for a hundred years. Not even two decades: > **[Planned obsolescence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)** > > In economics and industrial design, planned obsolescence (also called built-in obsolescence or premature obsolescence) is the concept of policies planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain predetermined period of time upon which it decrementally functions or suddenly ceases to function, or might be perceived as unfashionable. The rationale behind this strategy is to generate long-term sales v What’s important is that incredible amounts of material resources and energy are needed to maintain such a system. In a biosphere with physical limitations, that is highly unlikely. Some details here: > **[Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse | Cathy...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse)** > > Graham Turner and Cathy Alexander: Four decades after the book was published, Limit to Growth’s forecasts have been vindicated by new Australian research. Expect the early stages of global collapse to start appearing soon ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/353 "2015-06-02T03:51:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even if one were concerned about the amount of physical material available to us to use, I think maybe people are underestimating exactly how large this planet it. > > Practically speaking, human use of the physical matter making up the Earth - even limiting it to the biosphere and the very upper skin of the lithosphere - is pretty tiny, and what we have used can often be reused over and over. > > I mean, the world has some economic problems, but “running out of material to work with” is absolutely not one of them. Given the fact that incredible levels of energy are needed to get material resources that are deeper, then it’s the other way round. Here’s one helpful example involving mining: It's a long presentation but very informative. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911/354 "2015-06-02T03:55:55Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > This is the way the world ends > This is the way the world ends > This is the way the world ends > Not with a bang but a whinny. If anyone can present a peer-reviewed study that shows how future data will go against previous forecasts: > **[Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse | Cathy...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse)** > > Graham Turner and Cathy Alexander: Four decades after the book was published, Limit to Growth’s forecasts have been vindicated by new Australian research. Expect the early stages of global collapse to start appearing soon then they are welcome to do so. I’m not looking for press releases about new technologies, visions of the future, etc., but reports on signed agreements between most countries that are ready to act on the matter. There are a few, and one recent one shows a drop in CO2 emissions among some economies, but I don’t think that’s enough. What I think is needed is something that will fulfill at least the goals given in the IEA Outlook 2010 report. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-many-failings-of-capitalism/709911.md?page=17)