# On the subject of attacking an armed man and getting shot **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2020, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460 "2020-05-09T08:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/101 "2020-05-10T17:38:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > My life has been rather tame, but I wandered into construction sites when I was a kid. I wish I’d done more of it — I might have learned enough to catch more of the incompetence on view later when my own house was constructed. Tame as my live has been I’ve done other slightly “suspicious” things. At age 50 I was slightly surprised when a security guard followed me into a small empty garden next to a restaurant/bar and asked me to return to the bar. I’ve been accosted several times by police, when guiltless. Several times I might have been persecuted had I acted as a did, were I black in a redneck state. > > @ **Darren Garrison** — Am I correct that in all 47 years you’ve never done anything that a suspicious person might see as having possibly criminal intent? If so, your life may have been even tamer than mine. Congratulations or Condolences, whichever is in order. Again, the problem I have with this line of argumentation protesting Arbery’s complete innocence is that it inevitably, if unintentionally, carries the implication that something hinges on his innocence. It does not. Whatever the specific circumstances of what Arbery was doing here, _some_ people _sometimes_ do steal stuff, and _some_ of those people are black. And those people, too - just like white miscreants under similar circumstances presenting no physical threat whatsoever - should not be at risk of pursuit and murder by redneck lynch mobs. Accosting and murdering a hypothetical man who _did_ steal some copper wire from a building site is no more justified than accosting and murdering a man who was just jogging. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/102 "2020-05-10T17:41:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think the sidetrack of beating on Darren Garrison for making the observation that he may have been doing something wrong is mistaken, since it tends to carry the implication that something here hinges on Arbery being completely innocent of _any_ wrongdoing. It does not. Perhaps he was up to no good, who knows. What would it change if video emerged of him actually stealing something? As asahi has said, white people are not held to some standard of sainthood where suspicion (justified or not) that they may have recently been committing some minor non-violent crime (and present no physical threat whatsoever, imminent or otherwise) leads to a heavily armed redneck lynch mob setting out to confront and murder them. A million times this. “I think that person is acting suspicious” is grounds for _ **calling police** _, NOT for confronting with deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/103 "2020-05-10T17:45:11Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Accosting and murdering a hypothetical man who _did_ steal some copper wire from a building site is no more justified than accosting and murdering a man who was just jogging. Yep. Even if **Darren Garrison** ’s idiotic ramblings were actually correct, it wouldn’t change the injustice here one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/104 "2020-05-10T17:58:30Z")
I’ll add - I almost hope Arbery _is_ proven to have stolen something. And that his murderers are convicted and get the death penalty. To get the message across to all racist redneck assholes who want to organize lynch mobs that it is totally fucking _irrelevant_ what the guy was doing if it was not violent and presents no threat to you whatsoever. In a civilized society, if you think something is suspicious you call the cops. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/105 "2020-05-10T18:08:55Z")
If he stole something they will be acquitted and this will serve as proof that black men are all criminals and white men with guns are our best defense. It will absolutely justify everything in the minds of people who desperately want this story to not be true. If being white is central to your sense of yourself, when you read this story, you put yourself in the white person’s place. Anything that possibly justifies them will be embraced and magnified. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/106 "2020-05-10T18:22:43Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If he stole something they will be acquitted and this will serve as proof that black men are all criminals and white men with guns are our best defense. It will absolutely justify everything in the minds of people who desperately want this story to not be true. > > If being white is central to your sense of yourself, when you read this story, you put yourself in the white person’s place. Anything that possibly justifies them will be embraced and magnified. Yup, unfortunately that’s probably the reality if it goes to a local jury. But I still think we should aspire to do better, we should avoid too much focus on a narrative that he was a totally innocent jogger, honor student, worked in a soup kitchen, etc. - even if it’s true in this case, and even if it makes a more compelling story. A black person should not be held to some higher standard of unimpeachable sainthood to avoid being summarily murdered by a racist lynch mob. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/107 "2020-05-10T18:53:44Z")
I absolutely agree. But the “everyone knows THEY are all thieves and rapists. You can’t say it out loud anymore, but everyone KNOWS it’s true, even liberal pussies who won’t admit it bwcause they hate their own race, and given that, you’ve got to keep an eye on them, like these guys were doing” contingent is strong out there. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/108 "2020-05-10T18:55:59Z")
Have they announced how many marijuannas and how many cracks were in his blood yet? 'Cause ya know that’s next… CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/109 "2020-05-10T18:56:48Z")
So he jogs, MAYBE trespasses, doesn’t take anything (it appears), continues jogging. There’s allegedly robberies in the area, this unarmed black guy just wandered into a home under construction in broad daylight, IT MUST BE HIM! Let’s confront him with weapons! Uhp, he fought back! I shot him within my rights. This seems to be the summary of the police, prosecutors and the murderers. Zero brains being used whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/110 "2020-05-10T19:02:06Z")
Local news actually checked on the “robberies in the area” defense put forward in defense of the shooters. The police have no records of any reported burglaries in the area in recent months. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/111 "2020-05-10T19:09:16Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Nope. There is no vaid excuse for him to wander into someone else’s property and spend minutes inside a house under construction. None. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > . . . Do you know how many times in my life I have left public property and wandered for several minutes into a house under construction on private property? None. Zero. Zip. Nada. . . . If you took a poll, I’m pretty sure you’d find you were in the minority, here. Construction is interesting. If he lived in the area, I’d assume he was checking out the layout. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/112 "2020-05-10T19:13:35Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Local news actually checked on the “robberies in the area” defense put forward in defense of the shooters. The police have no records of any reported burglaries in the area in recent months. No doubt it depends on your definition of _area_. For example, some people think _area_ includes the whole country; other people think it includes their imagination. And to whoever it was that says they hope these murderers get the death penalty: A civilized society does better than that. I hope they get incarcerated for life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/113 "2020-05-10T20:26:28Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > All that was required was a simple phone call to the cops. Arbery would be alive Would that were true. But it’s not exactly guaranteed that calling the cops instead would mean he’d have lived. Not in the US. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/114 "2020-05-10T20:31:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Would that were true. But it’s not exactly guaranteed that calling the cops instead would mean he’d have lived. Not in the US. \ I’m afraid I can’t disagree with this, Dibble. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/115 "2020-05-10T20:40:13Z")
Was there not a crime in stalking a citizen and blocking his trying to run on a public roadway? It appears that they already had been brandishing firearms at him and yelling that they wanted to “talk to him” The definition of white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/116 "2020-05-10T21:05:51Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > The definition of white privilege. That’s the damned thing about this (and some previous incidents). Completely different standards of “suspicious” versus appropriate behaviors. Everything Arbery did beginning with jogging the neighborhood was viewed with suspicion, and any deviation from jogging with hands visible and no stopping will be endlessly reviewed by helpful internet ‘analysts’ finding fault with the victim. But it’s apparently appropriate for the neighborhood upright citizen’s brigade to arm themselves, mount their pickup trucks of justice, chase down and apprehend an outsider for looking at a house being built. And if he resists, shoot him dead, because ‘self defense’ and freedom I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/117 "2020-05-10T22:18:41Z")
So, whatever the media and anyone else might do in dissecting and analyzing Arbery’s earlier actions, what will happen at trial? Shouldn’t the judge rule any evidence about what Arbery might have been doing earlier inadmissible? How could it possibly be relevant to the fact that two (or possibly three) men armed themselves, pursued and accosted a man who (certainly at the time when they accosted him) was not committing any crime - he was not carrying anything, and presented no threat to them or anyone else - and murdered him? How could _anything_ that he _might_ have done earlier mitigate that murder? Even if he had committed a crime earlier, surely these circumstances are way outside what might conceivably be argued to be an attempt at a “citizen’s arrest”? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/118 "2020-05-10T22:19:37Z")
Phoooo. Go have a look at the comments over at the Fox News and Breitbart sites. Th’ wingnuts are up in arms. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/119 "2020-05-10T22:20:47Z")
Phoooo. Go have a look at the comments over at the Fox News and Breitbart sites. Th’ wingnuts are up in arms. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/120 "2020-05-10T22:28:26Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > That’s the damned thing about this (and some previous incidents). Completely different standards of “suspicious” versus appropriate behaviors. > > Everything Arbery did beginning with jogging the neighborhood was viewed with suspicion, and any deviation from jogging with hands visible and no stopping will be endlessly reviewed by helpful internet ‘analysts’ finding fault with the victim. But it’s apparently appropriate for the neighborhood upright citizen’s brigade to arm themselves, mount their pickup trucks of justice, chase down and apprehend an outsider for looking at a house being built. And if he resists, shoot him dead, because ‘self defense’ and freedom I guess. Imagine brandishing a gun and saying “we want to talk to you”? He doesn’t stop because maybe he don’t want to talk to that person. Then they trap him using 2 vehicles and the kid in front takes lightning quick measures so that he can’t run around them. But the guy was so quick that it was impossible to handle the situation like say in gun training classes. The brandishing of guns in this case is so gd strange. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460.md?page=7)