# On the subject of attacking an armed man and getting shot **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2020, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460 "2020-05-09T08:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/161 "2020-05-12T06:44:44Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > OK, I get the point everyone’s making that it didn’t matter. But damn, when I watch that video I can almost see myself doing exactly what he did. > > But I’ve worked construction and it’s just not that unusual for a neighbor or passerby to step inside the site, looking for someone to speak to. Sometimes it’s a neighbor that has questions on the schedule and sometimes people want to ask who the builder is, or are those outdoor lights solar powered? or where did you get that stone? They usually have a specific question but it’s usually mostly because they’re just curious. > > I saw the video that shows him jogging, he gets mostly past the construction site then turns back towards what appears to be an open garage door. Maybe he thought it was odd to see a garage door open in an unoccupied structure, making him think someone might be there. Around here, it’s not unusual for folks to go take a look at buildings under construction. Curiosity kicks in I think. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/162 "2020-05-12T07:07:58Z")
Same here. I mean, if there’s no fence, that means you can go in, right? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/163 "2020-05-12T07:37:41Z")
FTR I have also, in younger days, walked around open construction sites purely out of curiosity (I’m talking suburban houses, not large sites with big machinery and suchlike). I was only ever challenged once, and simply told to leave. Which I did. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/164 "2020-05-12T12:12:55Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > OK, I get the point everyone’s making that it didn’t matter. But damn, when I watch that video I can almost see myself doing exactly what he did. > > But I’ve worked construction and it’s just not that unusual for a neighbor or passerby to step inside the site, looking for someone to speak to. Sometimes it’s a neighbor that has questions on the schedule and sometimes people want to ask who the builder is, or are those outdoor lights solar powered? or where did you get that stone? They usually have a specific question but it’s usually mostly because they’re just curious. > > I saw the video that shows him jogging, he gets mostly past the construction site then turns back towards what appears to be an open garage door. Maybe he thought it was odd to see a garage door open in an unoccupied structure, making him think someone might be there. He was an electrician. Maybe he was looking to speak to someone about if they had work going? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/165 "2020-05-12T12:33:54Z")
The law says illegal to trespass but simply straying onto someone’s property or a construction site is a crime without a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/166 "2020-05-12T12:34:42Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Those clowns did not appear to be sticklers about the letter of the law did they? They don’t get the benefit of the doubt on the law for a few good reasons, one of them: neither of them were police officers. Depends on what you mean by ‘benefit of the doubt on the law’. Whether or not they’re police officers, they are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/167 "2020-05-12T12:47:05Z")
Wandering onto someone else’s property without permission isn’t a crime without a victim, because it’s not a crime at all. It’s only a crime if the property owner (or a legitimate representative of the owner) tells you to leave (or not enter). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/168 "2020-05-12T13:20:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Depends on what you mean by ‘benefit of the doubt on the law’. Whether or not they’re police officers, they are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Does that apply to the dead jogger? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/169 "2020-05-12T13:49:35Z")
No charges have been brought against him, nor is there any effort to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/170 "2020-05-12T14:10:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No charges have been brought against him, nor is there any effort to do so. He should find that to be quite a relief. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/171 "2020-05-12T14:32:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Depends on what you mean by ‘benefit of the doubt on the law’. Whether or not they’re police officers, they are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. > > Regards, > Shodan That applies to the legal system. If my babysitter is arrested on charges of distributing child pornography, I am not going to wait until they are convicted before I fire them. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/172 "2020-05-12T14:41:04Z")
> [@chela](#): > > He was not witnessed committing anything except dying. > > If he was checking out a house under construction without permission so what? What’s criminal about it? It’s actually a felony in Florida to trespass on a construction site. I don’t know about Georgia, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/173 "2020-05-12T14:50:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wandering onto someone else’s property without permission isn’t a crime without a victim, because it’s not a crime at all. It’s only a crime if the property owner (or a legitimate representative of the owner) tells you to leave (or not enter). YMMV. This might be true in Georgia, for various degrees of “wandering”. It’s not true in Florida, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/174 "2020-05-12T14:53:54Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > YMMV. This might be true in Georgia, for various degrees of “wandering”. It’s not true in Florida, though. If this happened in Florida you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/175 "2020-05-12T15:03:00Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > It’s actually a felony in Florida to trespass on a construction site. I don’t know about Georgia, though. Well… [Florida Statute](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.09.html) > [@](#): > > 810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.— > (1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance: > 1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or > 2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass, and > [@](#): > > (d) The offender commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, if the property trespassed is a construction site that is: > 1. Greater than 1 acre in area and is legally posted and identified in substantially the following manner: “THIS AREA IS A DESIGNATED CONSTRUCTION SITE, AND ANYONE WHO TRESPASSES ON THIS PROPERTY COMMITS A FELONY.”; or > 2. One acre or less in area and is identified as such with a sign that appears prominently, in letters of not less than 2 inches in height, and reads in substantially the following manner: “THIS AREA IS A DESIGNATED CONSTRUCTION SITE, AND ANYONE WHO TRESPASSES ON THIS PROPERTY COMMITS A FELONY.” The sign shall be placed at the location on the property where the permits for construction are located. For construction sites of 1 acre or less as provided in this subparagraph, it shall not be necessary to give notice by posting as defined in s. 810.011(5). If there’s another relevant statute, I invite you to let us know what it is. Without some other law, the law I quoted would render Arbery’s wanderings as non-criminal, unless the area was fenced in or adorned with a no trespass sign. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/176 "2020-05-12T15:25:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I am not disputing that nothing was taken. So if his intention was to rob the place, he failed. I am only saying it is the most logical reason to trespass inside of someone else’s property, and the most logical conclusion for the witnesses to reach. Really, you think stealing something is the most logical reason why someone might look at a construction site? Like others, I would do so because it’s interesting in and of itself. You get to see the walls open, how the building is framed, how the plumbing, electrical and HVAC are run. Are they using 2x6 studs on the outside walls instead of 2x4 studs to allow for more insulation? What sort of insulation is being used? All of this stuff is interesting, particularly since in most houses, this is all hidden behind walls and some of us live in older homes. So it’s interesting to see how things are done in new construction. For the same reason, I watch This Old House and other home renovation shows (and I’m an apartment dweller, so the knowledge isn’t even useful to me). ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/177 "2020-05-12T15:29:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wandering onto someone else’s property without permission isn’t a crime without a victim, because it’s not a crime at all. It’s only a crime if the property owner (or a legitimate representative of the owner) tells you to leave (or not enter). That’s always been my understanding, too. But some of the folks in [this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=805362) thread said it’s not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/178 "2020-05-12T15:47:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > …and If there’s another relevant statute, I invite you to let us know what it is. Without some other law, the law I quoted would render Arbery’s wanderings as non-criminal, unless the area was fenced in or adorned with a no trespass sign. Yes a sign is required. There’s always a sign, though. It’s posted out front by the permits. Kind of like how, in Florida, cars can only be towed from a parking lot if a certain sign of particular size and verbiage is posted at the entrance. So, as a matter of practice, there is _always_ a sign posted at the front of every parking lot. It’s just SOP. Same for construction sites. There will always be a sign posted. Regardless, it doesn’t apply to Arbery, since he wasn’t in Florida. I didn’t mean to imply that it did. I was just curious if maybe there was a similar law in Georgia. A lot of posters seemed to suggest that walking around a construction site isn’t illegal at all. Maybe that’s just where they live, because in Florida it can be a serious crime. If it isn’t a felony in Georgia, then it doesn’t matter. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this happened in Florida you might have a point. My point was just that not only can trespassing on a construction site be a crime, in some places it can be a felony. I am not familiar with Georgia’s trespassing laws. So I guess my “point” was actually more of a _question_. Whether or not it was a felony is what actually matters, because that will determine the defendant’s ability to claim a citizen’s arrest. If it’s just a simple misdemeanor, they can’t do that. But to be clear, even if this did happen in Florida, even with the trespass being a felony and even assuming the two vigilantes witnessed the felony and knowing they had the general authority to make a citizen’s arrest, as well as the backing of Stand Your Ground laws, I _still_ think these guys should go to prison. Arbery was not committing a forecable or violent felony, so those guys never should have been chasing him down brandishing weapons like that. And, Arbery would have the right to resist a citizens arrest and he cannot be shot unless and until he presents a threat of death or serious bodily harm. So, simply charging at the vigilante wouldn’t cut it. So even assuming a best case scenario for the defendants combined with a worst case for the victim, these guys are still guilty. And that’s best/worst case. As it is, there was no felony. Even if it _was_ still trespassing in Georgia (I don’t know), it’s not a felony and therefore there is no right to citizen’s arrest. Unless it’s a felony, the trespassing isn’t even relevant. The only way it becomes relevant is if it’s a felony, because it allows the vigilantes to claim they were trying to conduct a citizen’s arrest. Though, I don’t think they’d be successful in that anyway, as I explained earlier. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/179 "2020-05-12T15:58:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Really, you think stealing something is the most logical reason why someone might look at a construction site? > > Like others, I would do so because it’s interesting in and of itself. You get to see the walls open, how the building is framed, how the plumbing, electrical and HVAC are run. Are they using 2x6 studs on the outside walls instead of 2x4 studs to allow for more insulation? What sort of insulation is being used? All of this stuff is interesting, particularly since in most houses, this is all hidden behind walls and some of us live in older homes. So it’s interesting to see how things are done in new construction. For the same reason, I watch This Old House and other home renovation shows (and I’m an apartment dweller, so the knowledge isn’t even useful to me). I didn’t even know that anyone would think such a thing is wrong. Growing up, there was always construction around, and my parents and I thought nothing about going in and wandering around a house under construction. It was pretty fun, actually, as when people moved into the house, we’d get to tell them all about it. “I know where your pipes are!” I can see why maybe construction companies would be adverse, as I’ve heard of many substandard contractors out there, and maybe they don’t want people seeing their handiwork. In Ohio, such “trespass” is a fourth degree misdemeanor, just about the lightest “crime” there is. If you can get a felony just for walking onto a construction site in Florida, then Florida has some pretty serious issues. How often are people actually prosecuted under this law? Or is it one of those laws that exists specifically to be situationally enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460/180 "2020-05-12T16:03:59Z")
Another reason the construction companies wouldn’t want someone wandering around is that they could get injured. That is a legitiamte concern, which is why one should be careful when doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-subject-of-attacking-an-armed-man-and-getting-shot/853460.md?page=10)