# On the SUV debate (kind of long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2002, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015 "2002-05-03T05:42:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/61 "2002-05-04T16:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mesopotamis \* > One person drive **big** suv. Other person drive _small_ car. Cars hit eachother. Person in _small_ car get hurt worse then person in **big** suv. > > Its not fair. Guess what? Lifes not fair. You really think its the person in the **big** suvs fault? You chose what you drive. Okay then, I reassert my right to carry active armament so that when your big SUV comes barrelling down on my Saturn sedan I can _vaporize_ it. I’m not even kidding. Don’t like it? Too bad. Also, I reserve the right to go to your house and demolish your SUV. Hey, if you’re taking the gloves off, let’s not kid around at civility any more. I find your declaration of the rights of SUV owners to **kill** non-SUV drivers offensive and dangerous. The roads are a shared resource, and must of necessity be handled cooperatively. You can do what you want in your own home, but once you get on the road that we all pay for, I have a say about what you should be allowed to do. You want to make your own roads, then you’re free to do what you want. In the meantime, I’ll take your comments as free license for small car owners to slash tires on SUV’s (for their own protection, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/62 "2002-05-04T16:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as banning big cars from parking lots goes. Well, good luck passing that legislation. I don’t think legislation would be necessary. Most parking lots are privately owned and the owner has the right to disallow access to oversized vehicles. Of course, by doing this he will be reducing the patronage to the businesses served by said parking lot. Instead of banning oversized vehicles, I would prefer to see citations (small ones, perhaps $10 per violation) issued for any vehicle that parks across two lanes, sticks out of the space too far, parks in a handicapped space, parks a Ford Flipper in a compact car space, etc. Call them “don’t be a jerk” tickets. I would especially like to see this on public streets where parking is tight. The way it is now, some joker parks in two (parallel) spaces, leaving a half space in front and a half space behind. He doesn’t get a ticket- instead the poor schmoe who tries to squeeze in behind gets one for sticking out over the space a few feet. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Mesopotamis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@Mesopotamis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mesopotamis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/63 "2002-05-04T16:51:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*Okay then, I reassert my right to carry active armament so that when your big SUV comes barrelling down on my Saturn sedan I can _vaporize_ it. I’m not even kidding. Don’t like it? Too bad. \*\* There’s a _bit_ of a difference between an accident and purposely running into someone to kill them. If there was a situation that involved you vaporizing an suv heading towards you, and killing everyone inside to save yourself… Well, I can’t argue with that I’d probably do the same. If it was possable. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Also, I reserve the right to go to your house and demolish your SUV. \*\* No you don’t have that right. I’m not wasting my time replying to this. ---
**Author:** ![Mesopotamis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@Mesopotamis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mesopotamis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/64 "2002-05-04T16:55:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\* > > I don’t think legislation would be necessary. Most parking lots are privately owned and the owner has the right to disallow access to oversized vehicles. Of course, by doing this he will be reducing the patronage to the businesses served by said parking lot. > \*\* Oversized? What about some oversized crippled 400lbs person that can’t fit into a small car? Are we going to discriminate agent them? ---
**Author:** ![Mesopotamis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@Mesopotamis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mesopotamis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/65 "2002-05-04T17:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\ ***Mesopotamis** , first I want to state that I find your sarcastic tone to be both unseemly and something that I feel that I (and others) who are trying to get you to clarify your points do not deserve. > > That said, let us take your logic our of the SUV context and apply it to other areas. > > [ol] > [li]I (as a cook) choose to place meat in a vegetarian’s food (because I really like meat and this is America), well life isn’t fair. Too damn bad.[/li][li]I choose to play my music at ear-splitting levels at all hours of the night and you loose your job because I have kept you awake and your performance and said job deteriorates. Again, too damn bad.[/li][/ol] > > Get the idea? There are a host of areas and issues where individual choice is limited because it threatens the greater good of society. Again (I believe that this has been said by me earlier) I will state that this is such a case. I challenge you to refute this with at least some sort of facts (this is (after all) a debate), rather than resorting to cheap irony. \*\* Yes, if you search hard enough you can find exceptions to anything. The point is that driving a SUV doesn’t directly hurt or kill someone, that’s a fact. Now if you happen to get into an accident, yes you do have a bigger chance of getting hurt if you get hit by an SUV and you’re in a small car. Ideally accidents don’t happen or shouldn’t, but this isn’t a perfect world. I’m not going to argue the point that everything’s not equal. This is a basic principal that’s been around forever. Sometimes someone has something that’s bigger and better then what you have. Sometimes someone has a better chance of living then you, maybe because they have that better thing. Maybe its unfair someone is a better driver then someone else? If everything was equal. Well, sounds kind of communist. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/66 "2002-05-04T17:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mesopotamis \* > There’s a _bit_ of a difference between an accident and purposely running into someone to kill them. Not when the person at fault has intentionally purchased a vehicle with the intent to increase their safety at the expense of the safety of anyone else around. > [@](#): > > If there was a situation that involved you vaporizing an suv heading towards you, and killing everyone inside to save yourself… Well, I can’t argue with that I’d probably do the same. If it was possable. [sic] It’s entirely possible. It’s expensive, but a computer tracking system could very easily detect an imminent collision and fire an RPG with accuracy at an oncoming vehicle. It’s heartening to note that you see no moral difference between buying an SUV and purchasing a defense system which kills a colliding vehicle and all occupants. Now if you’d only realize that they’re both a bad idea… > [@](#): > > No you don’t have that right. I’m not wasting my time replying to this. You already replied. 🙂 If you have the right to use roads as your own personal killing fields, then I have a right to proactively defend myself. Plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/67 "2002-05-04T18:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mesopotamis \* > The point is that driving a SUV doesn’t directly hurt or kill someone, that’s a fact. Bull. The fact is that merely having SUV’s on the road increases the likelihood of deaths from SUV-car collisions. It also appears that SUV’s have a measurably higher rollover rate which results in more single-car deaths (in addition, SUV’s have a higher center of gravity, so when they roll over, your head is much more likely to be crushed against the roof than in a car). I did the research for this on a thread on another board, but I’ll hunt around again for the statistics. > [@](#): > > Ideally accidents don’t happen or shouldn’t, but this isn’t a perfect world. What a lame rationalization. Because it’s not a perfect world, we have to make compromises in our uses of common space and resources. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to argue the point that everything’s not equal. This is a basic principal [sic] that’s been around forever. Sometimes someone has something that’s bigger and better then what you have. Sometimes someone has a better chance of living then you, maybe because they have that better thing. What a laugh. You’ll please note that there is a wide range of non-SUV vehicles to choose from. You think that outlawing or restricting SUV’s will somehow remove all of that? The real issue is that SUV’s are exquisitely designed for killing people in cars, as **well** as the people in SUV’s. In addition to their weight, the bumpers on SUV’s are nowhere near the location of that on cars (whereas minivans tend to have bumpers in the right place). Vehicles are designed to take the stress in the bumper, and by having reasonably similar bumper heights, **both** vehicles do better. > [@](#): > > If everything was equal. Well, sounds kind of communist. Then build your own roads and drive exclusively on them, and I’ll be free to avoid driving on them. Until then, SUV drivers are using the same roads that the non-SUV taxpayers pay for as well. We have every right to restrict their ability to kill us. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/68 "2002-05-04T18:15:20Z")
_Communist_? Feh. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/69 "2002-05-04T18:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > What about some oversized crippled 400lbs person that can’t fit into a small car? Are we going to discriminate agent them? I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but as soon as the DOJ considers obesity to be a disability, such people will be adequately protected by the [ADA](http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm). I would expect that such a large person may already qualify for handicapped plates, in which case he or she already has a reserved parking space almost anywhere they go. Anyway, I would think that the extra climbing involved in getting into those really huge SUVs would tend to keep 400-pound people away from SUV showrooms in the first place. Perhaps you are suggesting that disabled people must not be disadvantaged just because they chose to drive a tank to the mall. Well I disagree that the person is being discriminated against, rather the tank (or choice of vehicle) is. I don’t see this as discrimination against the obese because such restrictions would also apply to me as a non-obese person. In short, if the rule applies to everybody then it’s not discrimination (discrimination = to make individual distinctions or show preference or prejudice _against a person_). ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/70 "2002-05-04T19:55:52Z")
Here’s a good summary of the problems of SUV’s: [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html) ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/71 "2002-05-04T20:05:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*Not when the person at fault has intentionally purchased a vehicle with the intent to increase their safety at the expense of the safety of anyone else around.It’s entirely possible. \*\* So if half the houses on your block buy security systems for their homes and the other half do not, is the half that don’t morally entitled to go to those homes and demolish the others’ security systems, so everyone has a roughly equal chance of being robbed? > [@](#): > > \*\*If you have the right to use roads as your own personal killing fields, then I have a right to proactively defend myself. \*\* I find it puzzling for someone to simultaneously assert that SUVs are more likely to kill their occupants in both single- and multiple-vehicle accidents, _and_ imply that SUV drivers are out looking to deliberately hit other vehicles and kill other drivers. That’s just patently stupid. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/72 "2002-05-04T20:13:57Z")
**pld** , but the charge levelled was that those who don’t own SUVs are _intentionally_ subjecting themselves to risks that they could otherwise avoid. And yet, the risk is that these vehicles are there in the first place. You might note how perfectly the circle fits. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/73 "2002-05-04T20:26:03Z")
I agree with your last post **pldennison**. Right on. One point- some parking lots do indeed have different spaces designed for different vehicles. Here in SoCal, we have several that have regular slots, compact spaces, and spaces specifically for high-profile trucks and SUV’s. It’s smart, easy amd avoids some conflicts. And just for the record, I find the idea of comparing me to an intentional murderer based on my choice of vehicle to be ridiculous and histrionic. Please try another tack, it would sound more intelligent and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/74 "2002-05-04T20:31:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Not when the person at fault has intentionally purchased a vehicle with the intent to increase their safety at the expense of the safety of anyone else around. I just want to comment on this. I personally put my own safety ahead of others on the road, even if it’s at the expense of someone else’s safety. If I get in an accident with someone in a VW Bug while I’m in my friend’s Caprice Classic, that person is much much more likely to die or get seriously injured than I will. To me, my safety (and other’s with me in the vehicle) are my primary concern (Well, actually, pedestrians are tied right there as well). The safety of other people in other cars do not come into the equation when I look at cars, I only try to keep them safe by being a careful driver. If someone decides to get a little Nissan because it’s good on gas, they shouldn’t be surprised if their car gets totalled in a relatively minor accident. If they get injured in such a case, well, it’s their own fault for choosing a car with such a drawback. Same thing with SUV’s. People just have to realize they’re not in a little zippy car. Maybe this has to do with drivers education, perhaps something isn’t being done right to educate them about the current dangers of driving an SUV, and how to drive them properly. We know there are several SUV designs that need to be fixed. However, SUV’s have multiple purposes. What other car class can do what a good SUV does? Vans/minivans? Can’t tow or haul a lot of weight. Trucks? Can’t fit as many people comfortably. So, what else is there? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/75 "2002-05-04T20:39:40Z")
And if you die while trying to zip through a red light and my SUV smashes you and your car to itty bitty pieces, that’s your own damn sucky driving that got you killed, not my SUV. (Note: I don’t own a car, I’m just commenting that bad driving gets more people killed than one person having a bigger car than another). Likewise, if an SUV hits your car while running a red light and kills you, theres a damn good chance there would be the same result if they were driving a minivan, or full sized sedan. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/76 "2002-05-04T20:41:26Z")
Speaking of circles… has this debate gone anywhere since page one? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/77 "2002-05-04T20:45:29Z")
Nope, and it probably won’t ! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/78 "2002-05-04T21:14:41Z")
- - - Note that all of the arguments against SUV ownership could be applied to _cars_ by _motorcycle enthusiasts_. -Sacred cows, indeed. - DougC/-Explorer- ;D ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/79 "2002-05-04T21:16:07Z")
Except for the fact that there is no way to have a safe collision in a motorcycle. Good try, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015/80 "2002-05-04T22:56:16Z")
But, riding a motorcycle would be much safer if there were only other motorcycles on the road and no cars. I agree! Let’s ban SUV’s, and cars, and salty foods, and sharp sticks…bleh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-suv-debate-kind-of-long/107015.md?page=5)