# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/221 "2016-05-07T02:00:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Are Doctors Cretella and Van Meter as thoroughly discredited on this issue as Dr. McHugh? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > \ > > This comes as no surprise from an organization that thinks that gay couples should not be legally allowed to adopt children. It’s a super-religious right-wing splinter group from mainstream pediatrics, because the mainstream pediatric organizations were not anti-gay or anti-trans enough for the handful of bigoted pediatricians. Well, that answers my question. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/222 "2016-05-07T02:03:50Z")
I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are _not_ on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/223 "2016-05-07T02:06:59Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are _not_ on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality. If you want to totally ignore the science, as well as any sense of decency and compassion, then feel free. You can feel this way if you want. But if you say hateful things about people who have done you no wrong, then expect to be criticized for it. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/224 "2016-05-07T02:07:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, that answers my question. Su[ch a resoundingly WHOLESOME sounding organization](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/225 "2016-05-07T02:10:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, that answers my question. Yup. While their organization’s agenda doesn’t automatically disqualify anything they say, it does mean that we shouldn’t grant them any sort of authoritative voice based on their organization’s authoritative-sounding name. [Wikipedia sez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians): > [@](#): > > The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative association of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The group was founded in 2002, by a group of pediatricians, including Joseph Zanga, a past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), as a protest against the AAP’s support for adoption by gay couples. The group’s membership has been estimated at between 60 and 200 members. ACPeds describes itself as “a national organization of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals dedicated to the health and well-being of children… committed to fulfilling its mission by producing sound policy, based upon the best available research, to assist parents and to influence society in the endeavor of childrearing.” > > Zanga has described ACPeds as a group “with Judeo-Christian, traditional values that is open to pediatric medical professionals of all religions who hold true to the group’s core beliefs: that life begins at conception; and that the traditional family unit, headed by a different-sex couple, poses far fewer risk factors in the adoption and raising of children.” The organization’s view on parenting is at odds with the position of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which holds that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and to raise healthy and well-adjusted children. The American College of Pediatricians has been described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a “hate group”, with “a history of propagating damaging falsehoods about LGBT people”. Edit: also, curse you Raventhief. You expect us not to recognize that username as a ninja name? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/226 "2016-05-07T02:12:03Z")
Wow, a whole 60 to 200 doctors! Why, that could represent a medium to large sized hospital! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/227 "2016-05-07T02:12:24Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are _not_ on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality. I imagine in years past, there were similar feelings among those who knew that blacks were subhuman, women were too frail minded to handle the vote, and homosexuals were just damaged headcases. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/228 "2016-05-07T02:19:03Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I imagine in years past, there were similar feelings among those who knew that blacks were subhuman, women were too frail minded to handle the vote, and homosexuals were just damaged headcases. Nature made blacks, nature made men and women, nature made homosexuals. It did not make men “feel like a women, therefore is a woman.” > [@](#): > > I’ll only accept short men if i can freely proclaim how disgusting they are without social censure. Real men are taller than women. > You know what? It’s not the same. Does a woman’s rejection of a short man result in physical danger for that guy? Because it absolutely CAN for a transwoman. You’re hung up on a particular physical attribute that in your mind defines gender/sex. I’m hung up on a different attribute. you find my statements insulting to short men. i find your statements insulting to transgender individuals. Hell, i find them insulting to thinking, rational people. > > You don’t want to be called out for your insults. Why then do you feel you have the right to call me out? You know what? I’m now trans-tall. I’m a short guy trapped in a tall guy’s body! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/229 "2016-05-07T02:19:06Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are _not_ on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality. I don’t actually know of anyone who has been shunned from polite society for holding a belief on the matter. I have seen justified ridicule heaped on bigots who called a special, one-day session of a legislature to propose and vote on a measure to prevent anyone in their state from enacting anti-discrimination laws. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/230 "2016-05-07T02:21:06Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman Out of curiosity, do you at least extend that courtesy to someone who has doctors perform a sex-change operation, with the slicing of the penis and the injection of the hormone supplements and thus and such? Do you treat _that_ person as an actual woman? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/231 "2016-05-07T02:21:23Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Nature made blacks, nature made men and women, nature made homosexuals. It did not make men “feel like a women, therefore is a woman.” According to the science, which you keep ignoring, trans people are in fact born that way. But don’t let the science get in the way of you saying hateful things about people who have never done you any wrong. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/232 "2016-05-07T02:26:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Nature made blacks, nature made men and women, nature made homosexuals. It did not make men “feel like a women, therefore is a woman.” > > You know what? I’m now trans-tall. I’m a short guy trapped in a tall guy’s body! Don’t you mean rather the opposite? don’t you mean a tall man in a short “man’s” body? And if you get to reject transgender i absolutely get to reject trans height. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/233 "2016-05-07T02:26:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > That is not to leave out that I do not condone the violence against transgenders that occurs. But it could’ve been avoided by just being oneself’s actual sex. Oh, wow - blame the victim. Do you tell rape victims they were asking for it, too? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/234 "2016-05-07T02:29:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > You know what? I’m now trans-tall. I’m a short guy trapped in a tall guy’s body! Don’t you have that backwards? You have a short guy’s body. Of course, if you wanted to get altered to become taller, I wouldn’t stop you. (Nor would I insist that you’re still short; how could I deny the facts? If your height changes, I’d merely note the fact, and figure your ID should reflect it, and so on.) ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/235 "2016-05-07T02:36:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the science, which you keep ignoring, trans people are in fact born that way. But don’t let the science get in the way of you saying hateful things about people who have never done you any wrong. Other than the few cases of genetic mutation/abnormality, what other actual"science" is there? A few confirmation-bias brain scans don’t prove anything. Do you think that, maybe, doctors and organizations involved in transformations might have a financial incentive to be proponents of their “science”? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/236 "2016-05-07T02:38:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Nature made blacks, nature made men and women, nature made homosexuals. It did not make men “feel like a women, therefore is a woman.” > > You know what? I’m now trans-tall. I’m a short guy trapped in a tall guy’s body! Who or what does make a woman feel like a man? Is that brain not part of nature? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/237 "2016-05-07T02:38:38Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Other than the few cases of genetic mutation/abnormality, what other actual"science" is there? A few confirmation-bias brain scans don’t prove anything. Given your own bias, there’s a strange loop here: how can you avoid anti-confirmation-bias when you examine these studies? What evidence would convince you that there’s a biological basis for transgenderism? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/238 "2016-05-07T02:41:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well, your contention that brought me into this thread was income tax, which was specifically authorized by the 16th Amendment. Do you then agree that the method of amending the Constitution (unchanged since 1789) is appropriate, or do you believe that the Constitution should be amenable to change by a simple majority vote of all citizens? The Constitution is fine. The only problem I see is with short sighted judges and politicians who interpret creatively. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/239 "2016-05-07T02:42:18Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Other than the few cases of genetic mutation/abnormality, what other actual"science" is there? A few confirmation-bias brain scans don’t prove anything. Plenty of psych research on top of everything. Why the resistance? The existence and acceptance of transgender people harms no one, and in fact that psych research demonstrates very strongly that the quality of life and long-term happiness for people uncomfortable or uncertain about their gender identity can increase very significantly by transitioning, for those that determine that they are transgender. Why is this bad? > [@](#): > > Do you think that, maybe, doctors and organizations involved in transformations might have a financial incentive to be proponents of their “science”? Considering the scientific consensus, no – no more than the fact that biologists might indirectly benefit from research dollars due to widespread recognition of evolution makes the theory any less accurate. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/240 "2016-05-07T02:44:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Edit: also, curse you Raventhief. You expect us not to recognize that username as a ninja name? Yes I strike from the shadows and purloin the errant corvid! Ninja raven theft! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=13)